## Varṇāśrama System Must Be Introduced Māyāpur, February 14, 1977 - Conversation **Leadership training...leadership means to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects...varṇāśrama-dharma for everyone—beginning with ISKCON...whatever your work, do it for Kṛṣṇa and become perfect...leaders: Vedic versus modern...peace and hope via varṇāśrama** **Satsvarūpa:** ...thought they were suppressed. **Prabhupāda:** **Revolution means they are dissatisfied.** **Satsvarūpa:** French Revolution, Russian Revolution. **Prabhupāda:** These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke.** But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. **You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. **The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process.** *Camara-bhangi*, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many *bhangis*, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister. **Hari-śauri:** **But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...** **Prabhupāda:** **What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education.** Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time. **Satsvarūpa:** **But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed**. But the people... **Prabhupāda:** **There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like *kṣatriya* should be trained up as *kṣatriya*. Then he is king.** Not that a *bhangi* by vote becomes a king. This is education. > śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam [*Bg* [[bg/18/43|18.43]]]: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kṣatriyas.] He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because *kṣatriya*. They should be trained up as *kṣatriya*. **Therefore the *varṇāśrama* college is required to train people who is able to become a *brāhmaṇa*, who is able to become a *kṣatriya*, who is able to become...** In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All *bhangis*, *camara*, *śūdras*, they are simply given vote. That's all. **Where is the training?** **Hari-śauri:** But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns. **Prabhupāda:** That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of *Bhagavad-gītā*, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact. **Hari-śauri:** Because even the *yavanas* and *mlecchas* were following the *kṣatriya* system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a *kṣatriya* even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is... **Prabhupāda:** Everybody's *śūdra*. Nobody's *brāhmaṇa*, nobody's... **Hari-śauri:** No. **Prabhupāda:** *Śūdra* is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom...That is best, to keep them under control...but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied. **Hari-śauri:** If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them? **Prabhupāda:** Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But [now]there is no education at all...**So we are stressing on the point of education.** You educate certain section as *brāhmaṇa*, certain section as *kṣatriya*, certain section as *vaiśya*.** In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a *śūdra* family. Take education. Be qualified.** Then you talk. Not by votes. **Satsvarūpa:** **Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes. Not... He did not say possible. *Ihā bāhya*. **[From Madhya [[cc/madhya/8/59|8.59]]: "The Lord replied, 'This is external. You had better tell Me of some other means.'"]** Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.** **Satsvarūpa:** But don't we do that also? **Prabhupāda:** No. **Our position is different.** We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took *sannyāsa*. He rejected completely material. *Niṣkiñcana* [one who has nothing to do with this material world"]. But we are not going to be *niṣkiñcana*. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of *Bhagavad-gītā*. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, *ihā bāhya*. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." *Bāhya*. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. **But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. **And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. **We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane**, which is not required. **Satsvarūpa:** *Varṇāśrama* is not required. **Prabhupāda:** Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not *brāhmaṇa*, I am not *kṣatriya*, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, the *cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam*. [ [Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me...] **So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.** **Hari-śauri:** **But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.** **Prabhupāda:** **That is not possible for ordinary man.** **Hari-śauri:** What, to simply induce people to chant? **Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Hari-śauri:** **He only introduced just the chanting.** **Prabhupāda:** **But who will chant? Who'll chant?** **Satsvarūpa:** But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the *varṇāśrama*. That's the easiest. **Prabhupāda:** **The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. **(And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu. **Satsvarūpa:** No. But if they at least will chant and take some *prasāda*... **Prabhupāda:** **Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.** **Hari-śauri:** Well, at least my own understanding was that **the chanting was introduced in the Age of Kali because *varṇāśrama* is not possible.** **Prabhupāda:** Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop. **Hari-śauri:** **So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced.** If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura to chant, it is not possible. **Satsvarūpa:** **We tell them go on with your job but chant also.** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. *Thākaha āpanāra kāje* [From song by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura: "...Go on with your prescribed duty, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.] Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.* Āpanāra kāja ki.* **Caitanya Mahāprabhu recom mended, *sthāne sthitaḥ* **[remaining in the *varṇāśrama-dharma*"]** And if they do not remain in the *sthāna*, then the *sahajiyā's* chanting will come.** Just like the *sahajiyās* also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for *sannyāsa* but he was given *sannyāsa*. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. **Therefore *varṇāśrama-dharma* is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the *varṇāśrama-dharma* should be introduced all over the world, and...** **Satsvarūpa:** **Introduced starting with ISKCON community?** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes. Yes. *Brāhmaṇa*, *kṣatriyas*. There must be regular education.** **Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society? **Prabhupāda:** **Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The *varṇāśrama-dharma* should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.** **Hari-śauri:** No, it's not a cheap thing. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. **If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down?** It is not easy. The *sannyāsa* is for the highest qualified *brāhmaṇa*. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... fall down. **Hari-śauri:** **So the *varṇāśrama* system is like for the *kaniṣṭhas*, *Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*. **[From SB [[sb/11/2/47|11.2.47]], see below.] **Prabhupāda:** Kaniṣṭha? **Hari-śauri:** When one is only on the platform of neophyte. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. *Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*, yes. **Hari-śauri:** *Varṇāśrama* system is beneficial. **Prabhupāda:** ***Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī* means he must be a *brāhmaṇa*.** That is *kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*. The spiritual life, *kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*, means he must be a qualified *brāhmaṇa*. That is *kaniṣṭha*. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, *brāhmaṇa*, that is *kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*: > arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ [SB [[sb/11/2/47|11.2.47]]: "A devotee who faithfully engages in the worship of the Deity in the temple but does not behave properly toward other devotees or people in general is called a *prākṛta-bhakta*, a materialistic devotee, and is considered to be in the lowest position.] The *brāhmaṇa* means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. **And below the *brāhmaṇa* there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.** **Hari-śauri:** No question of? **Prabhupāda:** Vaiṣṇavism. > śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām [SB [[sb/1/2/17 1972|1.2.17]]] [SB [[sb/1/2/17 1972|1.2.17]]: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā [Supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.] By becoming a *brāhmaṇa*, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a *brāhmaṇa*. The other qualities, *śūdra* quality, *kṣatriya*, *vaiśya*, means finished. So then next stage is, *śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ...* [SB [[sb/1/2/17 1972|1.2.17]]].* Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu*. [From SB [[sb/1/2/18 1972|1.2.18]]] By this process, hearing...** Without becoming a *brāhmaṇa* nobody is interested to hear. **Then, by hearing, *naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu*, then *abhadra*, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So *naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu*. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, *nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā*, by hearing from *Bhāgavata* or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement— > naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī [SB [[sb/1/2/18 1972|1.2.18]]] [ SB [[sb/1/2/18 1972|1.2.18]]: "By regular attendance in classes on the *Bhāgavatam* and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.] Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of *sattva-guṇa*. > naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī [SB [[sb/1/2/18 1972|1.2.18]]] *Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ*. [SB [[sb/1/2/19 1972|1.2.19]]: see below] When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, *rajas-tamaḥ*, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: *kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye.* *Kāma*, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, *lobha*, greediness—these things go. *Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama*... **When one is situated in devotional service**,* tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ*. These are* rajas-tamo...* These are the symptoms of *rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ*. > tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati [SB [[sb/1/2/19 1972|1.2.19]]] [SB [[sb/1/2/19 1972|1.2.19]]: "As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.] **The mind is no more disturbed with all these things.*** Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati*. Then he is to be understood... He's in the *sattva-guṇa*. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. *Prasīdati*. In this way, gradual step... **So it is very difficult to bring, introduce *varṇāśrama*, but at least there must be some idea.** Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that? **Satsvarūpa:** Religion professors. **Prabhupāda:** Whatever it may be, higher studies... **Satsvarūpa:** Yes. "Send us some of your men." **Prabhupāda:** Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest. **Satsvarūpa:** **In our ISKCON, one becomes a *brāhmaṇa* after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a *brāhmaṇa*.** **Prabhupāda:** **That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.** **Hari-śauri:** **Where will we introduce the *varṇāśrama* system, then?** **Prabhupāda:** **In our society, amongst our members.** **Hari-śauri:** **But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...** **Prabhupāda:** **Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? *Varṇāśrama*, not everybody *brāhmaṇa*.** **Hari-śauri:** No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is... **Prabhupāda:** That is... **Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.** **Hari-śauri:** **So then we should make it more difficult to get...** **Prabhupāda: Yes.** **Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.** **Prabhupāda:** **Not necessary. You remain as a *kṣatriya*. **You'll be ha... **Hari-śauri:** **No need for even any *brāhmaṇa* initiation, then...** **Prabhupāda:** **No, no.** **Hari-śauri:** ...unless one is... **Prabhupāda:** No, *brāhmaṇa* must be there. Why do you say, generalize? **Hari-śauri:** **Unless one is particularly...** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes.** **Hari-śauri:** **...inclined.** **Prabhupāda:** **Not that a *śūdra* man is by force become a *brāhmaṇa*. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a *śūdra* and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee.** *Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... *[From *Bg.* [[bg/18/46|18.46]]: "{By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading} a man can attain perfection through performing his own work.] He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a *śūdra*, then he cannot get perfection. No. **Even a *śūdra* can get perfection provided he does the work of a *śūdra* perfectly.** **Hari-śauri:** For Kṛṣṇa. **Prabhupāda:** **Therefore why a *śūdra* artificially should be a *brāhmaṇa*? Let them, let him remain a *śūdra*, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of *śūdra*, he'll also be as good as a *brāhmaṇa*. **The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect. **Satsvarūpa:** Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the *brāhmaṇa*. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not *brāhmaṇa*:* jīvera 'svarūpa' haya-kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'* [Cc Madhya[[cc/madhya/20/108-109|20.108]]]: "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.] But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." **Satsvarūpa:** **If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be *śūdra*..."** **Prabhupāda:** **No, no, no. I don't want.** I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a *śūdra*, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of *brāhmaṇa*, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be.** But even if he remains a *śūdra*, he's a Vaiṣṇava.** **Hari-śauri:** So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now. **Prabhupāda:** No. **Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down.** There must be systematic. **Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect.** Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that *Bhagavad-gītā*. *Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ*? **Hari-śauri:** > sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ yathā vindati tac chṛṇu "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done." [*Bg *[[bg/18/45|18.45]]] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. He is *śūdra*, clerk. He can... **As a *śūdra*, he can get the perfection.** Why he should artificially become a *brāhmaṇa* and *sannyāsī* and fall down? This has to be checked. **Hari-śauri:** So that depends upon our men who are giving recommenda tions. **Prabhupāda:** So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs) **Hari-śauri:** Following them. **So how will we implement?** Right now we have... Every temple president can... **Prabhupāda:** That is supposed. **Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.** **Satsvarūpa:** If there's no tree? **Prabhupāda:** You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow. **Satsvarūpa:** Small. **Prabhupāda:** Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—"Oh, it is very big." **Hari-śauri:** I don't follow the analogy. **Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.** **Hari-śauri:** Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpur now we have a situation... **Prabhupāda:** No, no. Why? **Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection.** So we should take that. **Hari-śauri:** So in Māyāpur here now we have that situation, that so many... **Prabhupāda:** **Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. **Question is that here it is clearly said, *sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ*. *Brāhmaṇa* has his duty, *kṣatriya* has his duty, *vaiśya* has his duty, *śūdra* has his duty.** And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect.** So why artificially he should be called a *brāhmaṇa*? Let them do, according to *śāstra*, the work of *śūdra*, or *vaiśya*. He'll get the perfect. **Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a *brāhmaṇa* or he should be made a *sannyāsī* and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point.** Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is. That is possible. *Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate* [*Cc Madhya* [[cc/madhya/8/58|8.58]]]. [From Parāśara Muni in *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* (3.8.9): "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṇu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of *varṇa* and *āśrama*. There is no other way to satisfy the Lord.]** Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, *sve sve karmaṇi*. You work as a perfect *brāhmaṇa* or a perfect *kṣatriya*, perfect *śūdra*; you get perfection.** The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked. **Satsvarūpa:** But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, *brāhmaṇa*... **Prabhupāda:** *Brāhmaṇas* are available. Why you are bothering about this? *Brāhmaṇas* are also available, *śūdras* are also available. Why *śūdra* should be artificially become a *brāhmaṇa*? **Satsvarūpa:** **What will the *śūdras* do in the big city temple, in all the temples?** **Prabhupāda:** **Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.** **Satsvarūpa:** Oh. **Hari-śauri:** The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented.** You were saying that it should be started in our society.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them.** That is another thing. That is small scale. **Hari-śauri:** The principle we're following. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required.** In big scale you cannot make all of them as *brāhmaṇas* or *sannyāsīs*. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. ** **Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said *para-upakāra*.** [From *Ādi* [[cc/adi/9/41|9.41]]: "{One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India (Bhārata-varṣa) should make his life successful and} work for the benefit of all other people.] **Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. ***Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ*. [From *Bg.* [[bg/18/45|18.45]]: "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect...*] Para-upakāra* means mass benefit, not there is certain section. **Then we have to introduce this *varṇāśrama-dharma*. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy...** Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals."* Tato vimūḍha-cetasa indriyārtha: *"They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." *Indriyārtha*. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky.** So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. **But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. *Mūḍho nābhijānāti*. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. **To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, *varṇāśrama*, that "Here is the position."** **Hari-śauri:** **At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?** **Prabhupāda:** **Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, *para-upakāra*. We have to keep them in the right position.** **Hari-śauri:** I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the *varṇāśrama* system in the society, but actually nothing came of it. **Prabhupāda:** Yes.** That time was not right. Now you can do something**. **Satsvarūpa:** That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the *vaiśya*. But nothing else happened. **Prabhupāda:** **Every business is important. *Brāhmaṇa* business is important, *kṣatriya*... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. **They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. **If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer.** Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. **Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is *varṇāśrama*.** They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the *śūdra* class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly? **Hari-śauri:** Proletariat. **Prabhupāda:** What is that proletariat? **Satsvarūpa:** The laborers. **Prabhupāda:** That's all. **These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production.** And where is the *kṣatriya* and *brāhmaṇa*? **Hari-śauri:** Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to... **Prabhupāda:** That is not *kṣatriya's* business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said... He arranged the battlefield, because the *kṣatriyas*, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now... **Hari-śauri:** Accumulation. **Prabhupāda:** Ha. **So Kṛṣṇa arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield—one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished.** That is not *kṣatriya*. This is demonic. ***Kṣatriyas'* business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened.** Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh?* Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām*. [Bg [[bg/4/8|4.8]]]: To deliver the pious and} to annihilate the miscreants, {as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.}"] So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not *kṣatriyas*. They are not *kṣatriyas*. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all. **Hari-śauri:** **So at least if we successfully introduce the *varṇāśrama* system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...** **Prabhupāda:** **At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."** **Hari-śauri:** Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right. **Prabhupāda:** **At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.** **Hari-śauri:** This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. **Prabhupāda:** Why? Why revolution? **Hari-śauri:** Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce *brāhmaṇas*. **Prabhupāda:** So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is *kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*. You are thinking of "we." That is *kaniṣṭha-adhikārī*. It is not that "we." *Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu*. [SB [[sb/11/2/47|11.2.47]]: see above.] You have to think for others also. **Satsvarūpa:** But the people are not at our disposal to organize. **Hari-śauri:** We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize. **Satsvarūpa:** We cannot approach the masses to organize. **Hari-śauri:** It can't be implemented on such a big scale. **Prabhupāda:** I do not follow what you say. **Satsvarūpa:** Just like... **Prabhupāda:** Ideal. We are giving the ideal. **Satsvarūpa:** But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few... **Prabhupāda:** **But you take. You show them.** **Hari-śauri:** That's why we say, "we." **Prabhupāda:** That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. **We are not going to be a *śūdra*. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.** **Hari-śauri:** No. **Prabhupāda:** **So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.** **Hari-śauri:** Well, again, that's... **Prabhupāda:** Not necessarily that we are going to be *śūdra*. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. **Satsvarūpa:** **So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes.** **Bhavānanda:** **Set the example.** **Prabhupāda:** Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a *sannyāsī* Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, *nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir nāpi...* [From *Padyāvalī* 74: "I am not a *brāhmaṇa*, I am not a *kṣatriya*, I am not a *vaiśya* or a *śūdra*. Nor am I a *brahmacārī*, a householder, a *vānaprastha* or a *sannyāsī*..." cited in Madhya 13.80] Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a *sannyāsī*." But He took *sannyāsa*. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a *sannyāsī*, for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this *varṇāśrama*, not that we are going to be candidates of *varṇāśrama*. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce...**Here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society human.** Four Varṇas to Solve Four Problems, Māyāpur, February 15, 1977: Evening Dar*śana*