## Localized Economics India, January 11, 1977 Conversation on Train to Allahabad **Localized economics—a revolutionary social concept...back to the land, back to freedom...education made simple...give everyone a higher taste...how to get good leaders...farms are the future** **Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?** **Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.** **Rāmeśvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of...** **Prabhupāda: **No, no. We shall...** If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.** **Hari-śauri:** Simplified. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple. **Rāmeśvara:** Completely? **Prabhupāda:** No, at least we shall try to make closed.** And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete.** There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. **For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...** **Rāmeśvara:** In America this is becoming the number-one problem—unemployment. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts) **Rāmeśvara:** People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs (?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. (break) ...their so many departments will be closed. **Rāmeśvara:** **[Localization is] possible in India but not in America.** **Prabhupāda:** Why? **Rāmeśvara: The American people...consider it backwards.** **Prabhupāda:** **That has to be educated, that backward is real life.** **Rāmeśvara:** They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world... **Prabhupāda:** Where is your freedom? **Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? **Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom? **Rāmeśvara:** The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time. **Prabhupāda:** Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. **Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. **That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. **You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?** **Rāmeśvara:** There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day... **Prabhupāda:** No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: *brāhmaṇas*, *kṣatriyas*, not for anyone, *śūdras*. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do. **Rāmeśvara:** But in America... **Prabhupāda:** No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, *brāhmaṇa* class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, *kṣatriya* class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only *brāhmaṇas*, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a *brāhmaṇa* class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. **So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.** **Rāmeśvara:** They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? *Anarthas*. Actually it is *anartha*. They have created so many things. **Rāmeśvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.** **Prabhupāda:** **"What we'll do?" (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance here.** (train stops) What is this nonsense? **Rāmeśvara:** It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America... **Prabhupāda:** That we want. **Rāmeśvara:** ...we will have to tolerate all these things—cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things. **Prabhupāda:** No. **If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.** **Rāmeśvara:** Very gradual. **Prabhupāda:** Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education. **Hari-śauri:** We have to make them devotees. **Rāmeśvara:** **But can all the masses of people become devotees?** **Prabhupāda:** **Oh, yes, cent per cent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take *prasāda*.** **Jagadīśa:** **People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy.** So if we give them *kīrtana* and *prasādam*, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? **Economic needs are the main thing. **That's why they... **Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.** **Rāmeśvara:** **But they will not give up sex life.** **Prabhupāda:** No, no.** I don't say that you give up sex life**. **Rāmeśvara:** That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive. **Prabhupāda:** Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will stop sex life. *Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*... [From Śrī Yāmunācārya: "Since my mind has been engaged in the service of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and I have been enjoying an ever new transcendental humor, whenever I think of sex life with a woman, my face at once turns from it, and I spit at the thought.]** If they're really Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life**. That is... **Hari-śauri:** But that position is not very easily attainable. **Prabhupāda:** No, that is not easy. **Therefore we say, "Restrict this."** And this will be possible if he follows our program. **Rāmeśvara:** You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Rāmeśvara:** So that means that** in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be *karmīs* still.** **Prabhupāda:** **No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this *prasāda* distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular.** Everything will be... *Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam*. [Cc Antya [[cc/antya/20/12|20.12]]] *Śikṣāṣṭaka* 1: "By chanting the names of Kṛṣṇa, the mirror of the heart is cleansed, and the devotee loses interest in everything external.] **Jagadīśa:** In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread. **Rāmeśvara:** That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be... **Jagadīśa:** Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician? **Rāmeśvara:** Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions. **Prabhupāda:** That's a fact. **Rāmeśvara:** In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia. **Jagadīśa:** But Kṛṣṇa consciousness knowledge... **Prabhupāda:** In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory. **Hari-śauri:** They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism. **Rāmeśvara:** **So when the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?** **Prabhupāda:** **It is due to quality of the leaders.** **Rāmeśvara:** But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious? **Prabhupāda:** **No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.** **Rāmeśvara:** So that means the whole mass population... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** Only then will Kṛṣṇa conscious government... **Prabhupāda:** No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see. **Hari-śauri:** **The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes.** **Jagadīśa:** Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple. **Prabhupāda:** Simple and it is natural also. **Hari-śauri:** **The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take.** **Prabhupāda: Our leaders must be very good.** **Hari-śauri:** That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there. **Prabhupāda:** If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone... **Rāmeśvara:** **In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.** **Prabhupāda:** **It is not church.** **Rāmeśvara:** But they think of us... **Prabhupāda:** Not stereotyped church. **Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.** **Prabhupāda:** **They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture...** **Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas—hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice.** **Hari-śauri:** To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness. **Prabhupāda:** Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in...** Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm.** (background talking) **Hari-śauri:** **He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive.** And also we have to use modern farming tech niques because we have so few men to run the farms. **Prabhupāda:** **No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.** **Hari-śauri:** **Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort?** If it's ready to do that? **Prabhupāda:** **Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa.** (*japa*) **Rāmeśvara:** In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but** in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.** **Prabhupāda:** **Therefore I am [advocating] farms.** **Rāmeśvara:** **So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.** **Prabhupāda:** **No, let them go to the farm**, New Vrindaban. **Rāmeśvara:** Many people... **Most people in the world, they are *gṛhamedhīs*, and they cannot give it up so easily.** **Prabhupāda:** **"No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain *gṛhamedhī*."** **Jagadīśa:** New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience... **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Jagadīśa:** There has to be some modern convenience. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. Then we shall do that. **Rāmeśvara:** **But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up...** Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways. **Prabhupāda: But you said that there is unemployment also.** **Rāmeśvara:** To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them... **Prabhupāda:** **So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.** **Rāmeśvara:** Yes. But for the mass population... **Prabhupāda:** Well, gradually you will increase and... **Rāmeśvara:** We have to give them something that they can do in their home. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Rāmeśvara:** Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple. **Prabhupāda:** **No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.** **Jagadīśa:** On the farm. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive.** **Jagadīśa:** **But for those who are already employed...** **Rāmeśvara:** **But most people have jobs.** **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Rāmeśvara:** Many people already have their jobs and their families. **Prabhupāda:** All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come. **Rāmeśvara:** But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of... **Prabhupāda:** **That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry.** (laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come. **Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they'll be jobless.** **Hari-śauri:** So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this. **Prabhupāda:** **They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society.** That is the... **Jagadīśa:** If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kṛṣṇa conscious? **Prabhupāda:** **And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being?** Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is—what is called?—bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being? **Rāmeśvara:** Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers. **Prabhupāda:** But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower. **Rāmeśvara:** **But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.** **Prabhupāda:** **Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get.** This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp... **Rāmeśvara:** Many people think that if you become a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to shave your head. **Prabhupāda:** That is very good. **Rāmeśvara:** But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us. **Prabhupāda:** No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter) **Hari-śauri:** So much inconvenience for washing. **Rāmeśvara:** These are misunderstandings that confuse people. **Prabhupāda:** The whole life is misunderstanding, material life. **Rāmeśvara:** But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing. **Prabhupāda:** Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely." **Rāmeśvara:** **They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.** **Prabhupāda:** We say...**We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."** **Rāmeśvara:** Not change your dress, but change your consciousness. **Prabhupāda:** **No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.** **Rāmeśvara:** It's our choice. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to... **Prabhupāda:** **Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.** **Rāmeśvara:** Ultimately, it is the best thing. **Prabhupāda:** If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in. Artificial Banking Systems, Bhuvaneśvara, January 21, 1977: Room Conversation