## Plain Living, High Thinking New Vrindaban, June 24, 1976 - Room Conversation **Advancement: material versus spiritual...of milk and meat...engage children as Kṛṣṇa was...Kṛṣṇa consciousness as working for Kṛṣṇa...even an animal can become God conscious by association** **Prabhupāda**: This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindaban to all the colleges this year when we are preaching and show it to the students as our practical example. **Prabhupāda**: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. *Anartha*. **Kīrtanānanda**: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Kīrtanānanda**: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. **Prabhupāda**: Now suppose these electric lights. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is *ugra-karma*. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and... In this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence, but that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called *māyā*. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature, you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life by the laws of nature, if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? **Kulādri**: Simple living, high thinking. **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kulādri**: Simple living. **Prabhupāda**: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? **Kīrtanānanda**: He says he doesn't believe it. **Prabhupāda**: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. *Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya*. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. **Kīrtanānanda**: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." **Prabhupāda**: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. **Kīrtanānanda**: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig oil? **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kīrtanānanda**: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to... **Prabhupāda**: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save you improve your self-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toys, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and... Then is that very good intelligence? **Kīrtanānanda**: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kīrtanānanda**: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. **Prabhupāda**: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? **Kīrtanānanda**: No, of course not. **Prabhupāda**: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said *duṣkṛtinaḥ*. *Kṛti* means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same—animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called *duṣkṛtinaḥ*. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. **Kuladri**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said... **Prabhupāda**: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal, what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say "You are rascal, you must go to your room." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? *Mūḍha*. It is the law of nature. *Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ*. [From *Bg.* [[bg/2/13|2.13]]: "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.]The example is given that this boy will change his body. *Dehāntara-prāptir* [transference of the body"]. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand? Yes, this body will not remain. While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but... Whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your... **Kulaśekhara**: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me... **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kulaśekhara**: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler...The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Less disease. Less brain-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? **Kulaśekhara**: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature"—what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. *Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. *[*Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad* 6.8: "...No one is greater than Him or equal to Him..." [Cc Madhya 13.65, [[cc/madhya/13/65|purport]]]] Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. **Kīrtanānanda**: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. **Prabhupāda**: That is, of course. **Kīrtanānanda**: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction....So everyone is getting milk? How much? **Kīrtanānanda**: As much as they want. **Prabhupāda**: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. **Kīrtanānanda**: Minimum. **Prabhupāda**: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound, milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. **Kīrtanānanda**: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. **Prabhupāda**: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to under stand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization?... So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say also. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. **Kulaśekhara**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as *ghee* and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice *samosā*, *kachorī*. So in exchange you get money, you require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India, before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping, say, a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then..., what is called? It is another milk. **Devotees**: Casein? Curd? Cheese? **Visakha**: Buttermilk **Prabhupāda**: Buttermilk, yes, and in this way after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and then get *ghee*, and that *ghee* is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought *ghee*. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require *ghee*, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way... **Hari-śauri**: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Hari-śauri**: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. **Prabhupāda**: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? **Kīrtanānanda**: About a thousand pounds. **Prabhupāda**: Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." **Kīrtanānanda**: That would be illegal. **Prabhupāda**: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim. **Kīrtanānanda**: But that will get us in trouble. **Prabhupāda**: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally... **Kīrtanānanda**: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. **Prabhupāda**: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. **Kīrtanānanda**: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Kīrtanānanda**: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. **Prabhupāda**: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. **Kīrtanānanda**: The jackals like it. **Prabhupāda**: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government... **Kīrtanānanda**: Government doesn't like it. **Prabhupāda**: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry, they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat-eaters. Take free without any price. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. **Prabhupāda**: Disgusting? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. **Prabhupāda**: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid. **Kīrtanānanda**: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) **Hari-śauri**: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself, he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat-eater. And he said, one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it, then it was ready to eat. **Prabhupāda**: White spot means decomposed. Fungus.* Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate. *[From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, *Prema-bhakti-candrikā*:* "*Fruitive activities and mental specula tion are simply cups of poison. Whoever drinks of them thinking them to be nectar, must struggle very hard life after life, in different types of bodies. Such a person eats all kinds of nonsense and becomes condemned by his activities of so-called sense enjoyment.] **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." **Prabhupāda**: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." **Kīrtanānanda**: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being. **Prabhupāda**: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient... But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? **Kīrtanānanda**: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. **Prabhupāda**: Hard work. **Kīrtanānanda**: That is good. **Prabhupāda**: For cows there is no difficulty. **Kīrtanānanda**: No. **Prabhupāda**: In India, they call Pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are Pahārhī. You have accepted other's children also? **Kīrtanānanda**: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands, there are quite a few here. **Prabhupāda**: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is..., who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. *Kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca.* *Kṛpā-sindhu*, "ocean of mercy," that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are, come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Kīrtanānanda**: The children are doing very nicely. **Prabhupāda**: Yes? **Kīrtanānanda**: And they will be our future community. **Prabhupāda**: Oh, yes. **Kīrtanānanda**: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the *Bhagavad-gītā* [*Bg *[[bg/3/8|3.8]]: see below] you'll find. *niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ* Find out this. **Hari-śauri:** What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda:** *Niyataḥ*. **You should read *Bhagavad-gītā* so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer.** Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer.** Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there. **Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately... **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** *niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ* "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." [*Bg *[[bg/3/8|3.8]]] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties. **They accuse us that we are escaping...We do not escape. We are always busy...** **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** Purport:"There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. **Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for *kṣatriyas*. **Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder *kṣatriya*. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. **So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture.** After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. **Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared.** Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." **Prabhupāda:** **That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight."** *Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin*. "And the result is already created by Me, **but you have to make a manifestation of fighting.**" Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple (laughs)? **Kīrtanānanda:** A little bit, not too much. **Prabhupāda:** Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor, so I liked it very much. It is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said "Yes, I accept." There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a *karmī*, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit?...They have kept five peacocks. **Hari-śauri:** Seven. **Prabhupāda:** Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. **Kīrtanānanda:** They stay on the grounds? **Hari-śauri:** They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. **Prabhupāda:** They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint they are eating flowers. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** Yes, they are eating all the flowers. **Prabhupāda:** **They are also trained, they are not afraid.** They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends.** Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions.** Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. **Hari-śauri:** That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. **Prabhupāda:** **Naturally, if he's animal. They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in animals.** **Devotee:** Except God consciousness. **Prabhupāda:** That is possible in human life. **But animal also can become God conscious by association.** **Kīrtanānanda:** **Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories.** **Prabhupāda:** **Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise [nevertheless?] love is possible with any living entity.** The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human beings love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa, everyone loves Kṛṣṇa—central point. That is the perfection of love. Ugra-karma in the Factory, New Vrindaban, June 26, 1976: *Bhagavad-gītā* Chapter 16