## Harnessing Natural Inclination Vṛndāvana, April 20, 1975 Conversation With Governor ** Government must maintain varṇāśrama...college must train varṇas...village must show example** **Prabhupāda**: Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a *śūdra*, and you are advertising yourself as a *brāhmaṇa*. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) **So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. **Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as *brāhmaṇa*. This should be stopped. **And a training college should be there how to make a real *brāhmaṇa*. **I have given the example... **Governor:** *Vānaprastha* college. **Prabhupāda:** *Vānaprastha* college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. **If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a *brāhmaṇa*, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real *brāhmaṇa* is trained up.** Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred *rupees* per month. So twelve hundred *rupees* per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six *rupees*. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a *brāhmaṇa*, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect *brāhmaṇa*." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of *brāhmaṇa*, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"? **Governor:** The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a *brāhmaṇa*. (indistinct)... Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people. **Prabhupāda:** All people. **Governor:** No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many. **Prabhupāda:** No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, *cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. [Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me...]The *guṇas* are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person.** That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of *brāhmaṇa*, proper training of *kṣatriya*, *vaiśya*, must be given.** These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that? **Brahmānanda:** **"As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect *brāhmaṇas* with ideal characters as above mentioned in the *Bhagavad-gītā*. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."** **Prabhupāda:** **So therefore this *varṇāśrama* college is very essential.** **Governor:** Both intensive and extensive training. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter. **Governor:** You said 5 percent and 95 percent. **Prabhupāda:** **Ninety-five percent may remain non-*brāhmaṇa*.** But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow.* Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ*. [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?"] **You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars.** So this is the suggestion. Then? **Brahmānanda:** "The propagation of *mānava-dharma*. Regarding propaga tion of *mānava-dharma*, *mānava-dharma* means the activities of the human beings. So the distinction between *mānava-dharma* and *paśu-dharma* is that in the animal society there is no idea of God consciousness. God consciousness can only be propagated in human society. In the animal society they may be physically stronger than the humans like the tiger and the elephant or many such animals, but they cannot be educated spiritually." **Prabhupāda:** They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then? **Brahmānanda:** "But in human society, even though one may be a low-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class *brāhmaṇa*. It only requires training. Therefore, *manava-dharma* means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kṛṣṇa teaches this idea in the beginning of the *Bhagavad-gītā*: > dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg [[bg/2/13|2.13]]] [*Bg *[[bg/2/13|2.13]]: "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.] This is the beginning of spiritual education, that every one of us is not this body. Unfortunately the whole world is in darkness, and therefore every human is identifying with this body and thinking wrongly, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am *brāhmaṇa*," "I am this," "I am that." To drive away this misconception of life is actually *manava-dharma*. We must know that we are not this body but spirit soul, and as such, we are part and parcel of God and therefore qualitatively one with God, exactly like a small particle of gold is also gold as is the gold from the big gold mine. But quantitatively the particle of gold is not equal to the gold in the mine. This is very elaborately described in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, and if we accept these principles of *Bhagavad-gītā* as *manava-dharma*, then the whole world will appreciate. And this is being done by our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Point Five: Elements in our tradition relating to *dharma* and *saṁsṛti* which are useful and wholesome but which are being discarded in practice, and those which may be considered to be unsuitable in the present times. Number Five: Regarding elements in our tradition relating to *dharma* and *saṁsṛti*..." **Prabhupāda:** This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The *pakkā* [first-class], he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then? **Brahmānanda:** "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to *dharma* and *saṁsṛti*, we must adopt the whole *varṇa* and *āśramas* as they are recommended in all the *śāstras*. If you give up these directions of the *śāstras*, that is neither *dharma* nor *saṁsṛti*, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the *Bhagavad-gītā* that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like *brāhmaṇa*, *kṣatriya*, *vaiśya*, *śūdra*, *brahmacārī*, *gṛhastha*, *vānaprastha* and *sannyāsī* must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of *bhāratīya sanskṛiti*." **Prabhupāda:** If you give up this *varṇāśrama-dharma*, then where is your *bhāratīya sanskṛiti*? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is* bhāratīya sanskṛiti*? Then? **Brahmānanda:** "Six: Injunctions of *śāstras* regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. **So the mutual relationship of *dharma* and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of *varṇāśrama*.** It is actually like this: the *brāhmaṇa* is like the head, and the *kṣatriya* is like the arms, the *vaiśya* is the stomach or the abdomen, and the *śūdra* is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the *brahmacārī* is the trained-up disciple, the *gṛhastha* is the trained-up householder, the *vānaprastha* is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the *sannyāsī* is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. **When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously** and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. **Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society.**" **Governor:** Coordination. **Prabhupāda:** Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea.** Not that "Because I am head, *brāhmaṇa*, oh, here is a *śūdra*. Oh, don't see his face."** Why? *Śūdra* is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required. **Governor:** It is an harmonious coordination. **Prabhupāda:** **Yes, harmonious coordination. But the *śūdras* were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans.** And there was no re-acceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Mussulman will take little water from the *badna* (?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammadan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammadan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammadan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the *śāstra*, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? *Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*... [*Bg* [[bg/9/32|9.32]]]: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, *vaiśyas* {merchants} and *śūdras* {workers}—can attain the supreme destination.] This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low-grade... **Governor:** No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere. **Prabhupāda:** Yes.** It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all *śāstras*.** Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although *śāstra* does not say so. *Śāstra* says,* māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ*. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in *pāpa-yoni*"...* Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim*, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position."** And in the *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. *Caṇḍalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ*.** [Even if one is born in the family of a *caṇḍāla*, if one engages in the devotional service of the Lord, he becomes the best of *brāhmaṇas*. But even a *brāhmaṇa* who is devoid of devotional service is on the level of the lowest dog-eater.] **Governor:** We have right example of Vālmīki [Vedic sage and author of the *Rāmāyaṇa*]. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, *śūdra*. He had no father. So *dāsī-putra*. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the *Jabalopaniṣad*, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prosti tute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are *brāhmaṇa*. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a *brāhmaṇa*, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as *brāhmaṇa*: "You are telling the truth."* Satya śamaḥ damaḥ*. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard *śāstra* and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. **So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the *śāstra*.** Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next? **Brahmānanda:** "The injunctions of *śāstras* regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. The injunction of the *śāstra* about charity is that charity should be given to qualified *brāhmaṇa* or *sannyāsī* because they will spend it for the benefit of the whole human society. This is called charity in goodness. In the *śāstras* there..." **Prabhupāda:** Just like we are getting charity, crores* *of rupees, but we are spending for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the *brāhmaṇa* and the *sannyāsī*, no other else. Then? **Governor:** The *apātra-dāna*. **Prabhupāda:** Ah? *Apātra-dāna*, that is third-class. Go on. **Brahmānanda:** "This is called charity in goodness. In the *śāstras* there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our *Back to Godhead*, 'Charity in ignorance.'" **Prabhupāda:** She has written one article in our *Back to Godhead*. I am quoting from that. **Brahmānanda:** "...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the *śāstras* charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. "Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kṛṣṇa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Point Nine: The role of* manava-dharma pariṣat*. I think that if the *manava-dharma pariṣat* takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the *pariṣat* inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society. **So far *manava-dharma* is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world.** "Point Ten: The *manava-dharma* mission, its constitution and program. **Therefore the constitution of *manava-dharma* or the institution of *varṇāśrama* must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. ** "**The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains.** Mother Nature, or Mother Durgā, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains. **This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing. **In the *Bhagavad- gītā* it is confirmed, > annād-bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ [Bg [[bg/3/14|3.14]]]: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of *yajña* [sacrifice}, and *yajña* is born of prescribed duties.] I hope you will give your serious consideration to my suggestions, and I am prepared to cooperate with you to my best capacity if you think my suggestions are right." **Prabhupāda:** This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles) **And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society.** **Governor:** Any elaboration of what you refer to as *vānaprastha* college? **Prabhupāda:** No, *varṇāśrama*. *Vānaprastha*, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take *prasādam* and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take *vānaprastha*, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge. **Brahmānanda:** I think the governor was asking about the *varṇāśrama* college. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. ***Varnāśrama* college, that training factual *brāhmaṇa***. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a *brāhmaṇa*, he must act as a *brāhmaṇa*. If one is proclaiming as a *kṣatriya*, he must act as a *kṣatriya*. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a *śūdra* will claim to be *brāhmaṇa*. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in* Bhagavad-gītā*, *sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ*. [*Bg *[[bg/3/35|3.35]]: "Destruction in the course of perform ing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.] So if one is claiming to be *brāhmaṇa* he must be *brāhmaṇa*. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a *śūdra*, and somebody is claiming, "I am *brāhmaṇa*," "I am *kṣatriya*," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the *brāhmaṇas* [were] strictly following. They would not accept... In the *śāstras* it is said that the *brāhmaṇa* in bad time may become a *kṣatriya*. Just like Dronācārya. He was *brāhmaṇa*, but he became a *kṣatriya* for certain reason, and acting like *kṣatriya*, although he was respected as *brāhmaṇa*, but he was acting as a *kṣatriya*. So it is advised that *brāhmaṇa* may take the profession of a *kṣatriya* and up to the *vaiśya*. But if he takes the profession of a *śūdra*, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced**. **And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, *samsriti*? **Brahmānanda:** *Bhāratīya samskriti*. **Prabhupāda:** *Bhāratīya samskriti*. It will be very respectfully accepted. Why should we imitate them? That is... Western civilization is not brahminical culture. **There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely... So in our India, in a place like Vṛndāvana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if *varṇāśrama* college is established.** How to Utilize the Bulls, New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Walk Around New T**ā**lavana Farm