## Varṇāśrama College Vṛndāvana March 14, 1974 - Morning Walk **Prabhupāda:** ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, *varṇāśrama* college. **Satsvarūpa:** For the public in general? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this *varṇāśrama* college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training. **Hṛdayānanda:** Would it be for a particular age group? **Prabhupāda: **Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha*. [SB [[sb/7/6/1 1976|7.6.1]]]: "One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service...] The... How... We are getting so many *sannyāsīs*, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches. **Hṛdayānanda:** How would it be different than *gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** How would it differ from *gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:** *Gurukula* is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the *varṇāśrama* school or college for further developed training. **Hṛdayānanda:** They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or *varṇa*? Such as say... **Prabhupāda:** No. **Hṛdayānanda:** Say, for example, someone was a, a *kṣatriya* by inclination, or a...? **Prabhupāda:** No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore *varṇāśrama* college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Hṛdayānanda:** But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like *Bhagavad-gītā* and *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would... **Hṛdayānanda:** Boarding school. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hṛdayānanda:** And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in *gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Just like material subject matter, *kṣatriya*, or the *brāhmaṇas*, *kṣatriya*, as they are described in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, what are the symptoms of *brāhmaṇa*, what is the symptoms of *kṣatriya*. The *kṣatriyas* should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill. **Hṛdayānanda: **Oh. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And *vaiśyas* should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical. **Nitāi:** Not business also? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Nitāi:** The *vaiśyas*? **Prabhupāda:** Business, this rascal business, no. **Nitāi:** No? **Prabhupāda:** Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is *śūdra* business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Huh? Is it difficult? This is business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a *kṣatriya*, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a *brāhmaṇa*, or as a *kṣatriya*, or as a *vaiśya*, or as a *śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:** What kind of training is there for a *śūdra*? **Prabhupāda:** *Śūdra* is general assistant. **Hṛdayānanda:** Oh, just... **Prabhupāda:** Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all. **Satsvarūpa:** What would he learn at the school, though? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Satsvarūpa:** What would his business be at that *varṇāśrama* college? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is *śūdra*. He must agree to abide by the orders of *brāhmaṇa*, *kṣatriyas*, *vaiśya*. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and *ārati*. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit. **Yadubara: **Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Yadubara:** What class does the arts and crafts come under? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? *Śūdra*. **Yadubara:** *Śūdra*. **Prabhupāda: **They are *śūdras*. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the *śūdras*. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts. **Yadubara:** Hm. Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore the whole people, population, is *śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:** It is a fact. **Prabhupāda:** That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are *śūdras*. [break] **Hṛdayānanda:** ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** In our society [break] ...accepted [break] ...as a philosopher. **Prabhupāda:** Artist? **Hṛdayānanda:** Yeah, the artist. **Prabhupāda:** No, no. Artist is also business of the *śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:** Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... [break] **Prabhupāda:** Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy. **Hṛdayānanda:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** That, in your Western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog...They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. *Vane haye śṛgāla rājā*. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than *śūdras* and *caṇḍālas*. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact. **Hṛdayānanda:** It's true. Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, *mlecchas* and *yavanas*. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the *mlecchas* and *yavanas*, by training, you are becoming more than a *brāhmaṇa*. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry.* Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati* (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. *Prakopayati na śamayati*. *Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānām* (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. *Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. * But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore *varṇāśrama* school required. **Hṛdayānanda: **So Prabhupāda, in this *varṇāśrama* college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...? Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read *Mahābhārata*, history of the great men, Pāṇḍavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. **Hṛdayānanda:** *Mahābhārata*. **Prabhupāda:** Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so... **Prabhupāda:** Hm? History must be for great person. This is history. **Hṛdayānanda:** So in our *varṇāśrama* college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow... **Prabhupāda:** Four principles essential. Essential. But only the *śūdras* or the *kṣatriyas*... Just like *kṣatriyas*, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also. **Hṛdayānanda:** What he kills. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are *kṣatriyas*, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the *kṣatriyas*, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the *śūdras*, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the *caṇḍālas*. **Hṛdayānanda: **But never the cow. **Prabhupāda**: No. Cow... The *śūdras*, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition. **Satsvarūpa**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men? **Prabhupāda**: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home. **Satsvarūpa**: So they don't attend *varṇāśrama* college. **Prabhupāda**: No, no. *Varṇāśrama* college especially meant for the *brāhmaṇa*, *kṣatriya* and *vaiśya*. Those who are not fit for education, they are *śūdras*. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education—*śūdra* means. That's all. They should assist the higher class. **Hṛdayānanda**: Would the *brāhmaṇas* learn Sanskrit? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? Not necessarily. **Hṛdayānanda**: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy. **Prabhupāda**: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. **Hṛdayānanda**: So in this *varṇāśrama* college there would be two divisions, *varṇa* and *āśr*... Learning a materia... **Prabhupāda**: First of all *varṇa*. And *āśrama*, then, when the *varṇa* is perfectly in order, then *āśrama*. *Āśrama* is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and *varṇa* is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If *varṇa* is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the *varṇa* is working perfectly, then we give them *āśrama*. *Varṇāśrama*. That is later on. **Hṛdayānanda**: First they should be taught a skill. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four *varṇas*. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into *varṇas*, there will be no question of unemployment. **Hṛdayānanda**: But from the very beginning there should be taught *Bhagavad-gītā* and... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above *varṇāśrama*. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above *varṇāśrama*. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any *varṇa* and *āśrama*. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to *varṇāśrama*, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, *mayā sṛṣṭam*. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with *varṇāśrama*. Similarly, if we act as *varṇāśrama*, still, we have nothing to do with the *varṇāśrama*. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a *brāhmaṇa*. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. They are* satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ*. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... *śamo damaḥ*,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. *Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam*. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is *brāhmaṇa*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in? **Prabhupāda**: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh, they'll be teachers. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was *brāhmaṇa*, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the *brāhmaṇas*. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a *brāhmaṇa*. But because he took the position of a teacher, he taught very perfectly. A *brāhmaṇa* should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is *brāhmaṇa*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So *brāhmaṇa* can teach how to fight? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. *Brāhmaṇa* means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything. **Satsvarūpa**: This is all very new. **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Satsvarūpa**: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school. **Prabhupāda**: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult? **Satsvarūpa**: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though. **Prabhupāda**: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor. **Satsvarūpa**: Then it becomes easy. **Prabhupāda**: But I must know everything because I am a teacher. **Hṛdayānanda**: So, for example, if I become a teacher at *varṇāśrama*, say, the first teacher at the *varṇāśrama* college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to... **Prabhupāda**: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these *varṇāśrama*, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions. **Viṣṇujana**: For example, in New Vrindaban we have *brāhmaṇas* that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. That's right. He is *brāhmaṇa*, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing. **Hṛdayānanda**: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything. **Prabhupāda**: No, no. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh, I see. So a *brāhmaṇa* teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the... **Prabhupāda**: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are *śūdras* or less than *śūdras*. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given. **Viṣṇujana**: Preliminary. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work? **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind. **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa conscious ness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method—*varṇāśrama*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our *varṇāśrama* college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you've made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about *Bhagavad-gītā* and then, side by side, they learn a... **Prabhupāda**: Four regulative principles compulsory. **Hṛdayānanda**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: But if some of the *kṣatriya* or the *śūdras*, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the *kṣatriya*, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. *Bās*. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. *Bās*. He cannot steal anymore. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing. **Yadubara**: How would the *kṣatriyas* kill the animals? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Yadubara**: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? **Prabhupāda**: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the *kṣatriyas* were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, *parivrāja*, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg and you are traveling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. **Viṣṇujana**: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of... **Prabhupāda**: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it. **Viṣṇujana**: Oh, I see. **Prabhupāda**: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them *prasādam*. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is *sannyāsī*. **Viṣṇujana**: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: ...that we live there and... **Prabhupāda**: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat." **Viṣṇujana**: Then there'll be wide criticism. **Prabhupāda**: That is... This is not good. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda... **Prabhupāda**: You should remain always *sannyāsī* within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this *varṇāśrama*. We are not *varṇāśrama*; we are above *varṇāśrama*. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position? **Prabhupāda**: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the *brāhmaṇas*, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money. **Hṛdayānanda**: The *vaiśya* students will produce the food. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Satsvarūpa**: Should our children who are at *gurukula*, when they grow up, should they go to that *varṇāśrama* college, or...? **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. They should go. **Hṛdayānanda**: We'll start it right away. **Prabhupāda**: *Varṇāśrama* college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students. **Hṛdayānanda**: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Ten to twelve years. **Hṛdayānanda**: They can start at ten to twelve? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. From five to ten years, *gurukula*. And after ten years, they should go to the *varṇāśrama* college. **Viṣṇujana**: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Organize that. **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. I shall go. **Viṣṇujana**: This Mahārāja is also going to New Vrindaban. **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. **Viṣṇujana**: He can... **Prabhupāda**: Do that. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you, and combined together, do that. **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work. **Viṣṇujana**: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Viṣṇujana**: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: That's most auspicious. **Prabhupāda**: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain. **Viṣṇujana**: For example, in my program... **Prabhupāda**: *Budhaḥ*. *Budhaḥ* [an intelligent person"]. Eh? Yes? **Viṣṇujana**: My program now is I have ten *brahmacārīs* in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books? **Prabhupāda**: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa [break] ...in separate department. **Passer-by**: Rādhe, Rādhe! **Prabhupāda**: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe." **Viṣṇujana**: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were... **Prabhupāda**: This is India. **Viṣṇujana**: ...worshiping... **Prabhupāda**: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries. **Hṛdayānanda**: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Parivrājakācārya**: Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Parivrājakācārya**: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...? **Prabhupāda**: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this *varṇāśrama*. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position. **Parivrājakācārya**: So the students, also, they must all be devotees. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul. **Satsvarūpa**: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as *vaiśya* or... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the ground work. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the *gopīs*, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that. **Hṛdayānanda**: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...? **Prabhupāda**: They should be engaged. **Hṛdayānanda**: Should they be trained in a particular...? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture. **Hṛdayānanda**: Those who cannot preach. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as *kṣatriya* or *vaiśya*, or as *śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda**: And sometimes... **Prabhupāda**: Not he's *śūdra*. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy. **Hṛdayānanda**: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college. **Prabhupāda**: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come. **Hṛdayānanda**: Room and board and training. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, *śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So they should be trained to rise early and so on. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina? **Hṛdayānanda**: Yes. Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very...* Balera ghāma*, and the *durbalera ghuma*. *Ghāma* and *ghuma*. *Ghuma* means sleeping, and *ghāma* means perspiration. [break] ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion... Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁhadeva.* Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān* [SB [[sb/7/9/43 1976|7.9.43]]]. "...My concern is only for the fools and rascals who are making elaborate plans for material happiness and maintaining their families, societies and countries. I am simply concerned with love for them.] [break] ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. [break]... Devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a *śūdra* how to work like this, you have become a *śūdra*. You are not *śūdras*, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a *śūdra* how to work like a *śūdra*. [break] ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear? **Satsvarūpa**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training *kṣatriyas*, they're training... **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning... **Viṣṇujana**: ...*vaiśyas*... **Prabhupāda**: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula. **Viṣṇujana**: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired. **Parivrājakācārya**: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already... **Prabhupāda**: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there. **Viṣṇujana**: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. *Pañcāyeta*. It is called *pañcāyeta* system. [break] ...tion. You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings. **Viṣṇujana**: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and... **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. **Viṣṇujana**: ...and turn it into a society. **Hṛdayānanda**: Ah, that's wonderful. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Draw a Plow, Vṛndāvana, March 15, 1974: Varṇāśrama Walk