## Different Duties for Different Kinds of People New Vrindaban, June 9, 1969 **Balancing work and worship...sannyāsī's role in community development...our mission of making people peaceful and happy ** **Prabhupāda:** In the *Caitanya-caritāmṛta* it is said*, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya*. [From: *Ādi* [[cc/adi/5/142|5.142]]: "Lord Kṛṣṇa alone is the supreme control ler, and all others are His servants...] (baby making noises) (aside:) He will disturb. *Īśvara*. *Īśvara* means master or the controller. Actually only Kṛṣṇa is master. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, or incarnation of Viṣṇu, all of them are, in one sense, even Rādhārāṇī, all are servants. *Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya*. So in that sense, in this New Vrindaban the master is Kṛṣṇa, and we are all servants. But there are division of duties of the servants, and they should discharge. Just like in our propagation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are certain duties entrusted to certain devotee, and if he faithfully carries out that duty, that is his perfection. The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and the duty allotted by him to a certain person, that should be his execution of spiritual duties. **So this New Vrindaban, master is Kṛṣṇa. Now we should specifically divide duties amongst ourselves and discharge such duties faithfully.** Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, as you are growing up to now, the system and the prescription is very nicely being conducted. And this will help us more and more progress. So in this meeting I think we should allot different kinds of duties to different persons and execute. So you say something. [break] ...temple. I don't think it can take more than two hours. **Kīrtanānanda:** We are done *ārati* and *kīrtana* by seven o'clock in the morning. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right. Then the respective duty can be discharged in two, three hours. That's all. Seven to ten. After taking your breakfast you work up to ten. Then you have got enough time. **Kīrtanānanda:** Time for what? **Prabhupāda:** **Everyone has to make his own routine work, and for chanting and reading and Bhagavad-gītā he requires, say, two to three hours.** So we have got twenty-four hours at our disposal. Out of that, six hours or seven hours for sleeping. So still you have got seventeen hours. And three hours devote for chanting and reading. Still you have got fourteen hours. **Kīrtanānanda:** But we devote at least five hours to *ārati* and *kīrtana*. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Satyabhāmā:** Another hour and a half or two hours to *prasādam*. **Śyāma:** Eating? **Satyabhāmā:** Yes. To eating *prasādam*. **Prabhupāda:** Two hours for eating? **Paramānanda:** Eating and taking rest. **Satyabhāmā: **Well, noon *prasādam*, morning *prasādam*, milk in the evening. **Paramānanda:** Morning and evening, half hour, noon, one hour. **Hayagrīva:** Bathing, bathing takes an hour. **Prabhupāda:** So you want to stop chanting and reading? **Satyabhāmā:** No. No. (laughs) **Kīrtanānanda: **We don't want to stop chanting. I don't want to. That's not the proposal. The proposal was... **Satyabhāmā: Which comes first? If... The work seems to have to be done, but the...** **Prabhupāda:** **You can forego your sleeping and eating.** **Satyabhāmā: **Haribol. **Prabhupāda:** The Gosvāmīs were doing like that. *Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau*. They were discharging their duties, and if sometimes they still could not finish the chanting, they would forego their eating and sleeping. Eating and sleeping, say, seven to nine hours. Then we have to sacrifice our sleeping and eating. **Paramānanda:** But the Gosvāmīs, they didn't swing axes all day, did they? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. (chuckles) **Paramānanda: **They didn't do hard physical work. **Prabhupāda:** No, they were writing books. So they were writing. You have to manage. You see? How can I suggest, "You can do this, you can do this"? Everyone has to do. Just like I do my work according to my own routine, you see. Similarly, one has to... But if sometimes, by chance, you do not get any time for reading *Bhagavad-gītā*, that does not harm very much because you are already engaged in *Bhagavad-gītā*. Any duty here in New Vrindaban... Just like Kṛṣṇa was inducing Arjuna to fight. That fighting was also within the program of this devotional service. Similarly, anything working within this New Vrindaban, that is also counted reading *Bhagavad-gītā*. So in some day if you don't find, read *Bhagavad-gītā*, but that chanting must be finished. That is very essential. **Hayagrīva:** **Can one chant when working?** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Why not? **Chanting is the basic standing of our life.** **Kīrtanānanda:** I think here, as I look at it, **we're spending about five hours a day in *ārati* and *kīrtana*, which, I think, is really good because I think that is the heart of Vṛndāvana.** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **That is the life of Vṛndāvana.** **Kīrtanānanda:** So I don't want to sacrifice that for anything. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That must be... **Kīrtanānanda: **That must be there. That's the heart. **Prabhupāda:** **You can forego even reading *Bhagavad-gītā*, but that must be continued.** **Kīrtanānanda:** But now, right now, of course, this is not time for pruning, but I'd like to prune to show people that we really have something. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Kīrtanānanda:** It would be nice for our community. It would be nice for the people who visit us so that they'd be able to see that "Ah, they're able to carry on with their gardening." **Prabhupāda:** No. You also require some fruits for your existence also. Kṛṣṇa will like it. **Kīrtanānanda: **Actually it will help morale if they just have a little better *prasādam*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And now we require some assistants, more assistants. Yes. So Kṛṣṇa will send. Kṛṣṇa will send gradually. You'll have more men here, and engage them... **Kīrtanānanda:** The way it works out, the afternoon, they never seem to get much done anyway. There's a lot of frustration. Because sometimes I have a feeling like it's a lot of time being wasted, but still it seems very difficult because you figure... Well, suppose *prasādam* were offered at two and you didn't finish up until about three. And then they rest until four. By the time they bathe and everything, it's time to start getting ready for *kīrtana*. **Hayagrīva:** We finished *ārati* and *kīrtana* by six o'clock this morning. That means that the early morning *prasādam* must be ready at six o'clock so we finish by seven and then work from seven to eight to nine to ten to eleven to twelve to one to two. That's eight hours' hard work in the morning. And then the rest of the afternoon off. **Kīrtanānanda: **That's all right. **Hayagrīva:** But we should get at least eight hours' hard work in on the grounds. **Satyabhāmā:** Can the men do that, eight hours' hard work like that without a break? **Hayagrīva:** Sure. I could. **Paramānanda:** That is not enough time, though, in the afternoon for chanting. **Hayagrīva: **What do you mean? The whole afternoon... **Prabhupāda:** **That is nice, that in the morning you work and after *prasādam* you are at ease, take rest or read or whatever you like.** **Hayagrīva:** There's plenty of time. From two o'clock until bedtime. That's eight hours. From two to ten. You can't chant sixteen rounds in eight hours? **Paramānanda: **Well, I have to begin my duties with the cow at five o'clock. So we'll be finishing *prasādam* and rest at about four o'clock. That leaves me one hour, which is filled up with other odd chores. **Hayagrīva:** Well, then, if you have to take... You have an extra hour you have to work in the afternoon. You have an extra hour? **Satyabhāmā: **Two hours. **Kīrtanānanda:** Since you milk the cows in the evening like that, you could take an hour or so off early. That would be all right. **Hayagrīva:** Then you can take off at one. If you put in an hour in the afternoon with the cow, then take off an hour from one to two to chant. **Satyabhāmā:** Then we have from seven to eight. **Kīrtanānanda: **We'll try it that way. **Hayagrīva:** Sometimes we're so slow getting started in the morning. **Paramānanda:** It's not enough time because..., that is, if the morning, the entire morning, is to be allotted to the major tasks. 'Cause the thing is, I find, that there are many, many time-consuming little chores to be done, that without which New Vrindaban would be a mess. There are so many little tasks to be done. [break] **Hayagrīva:** I'm president. **Prabhupāda:** You are the president. And who is secretary? **Hayagrīva:** Śyāma dāsī is secretary. **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Hayagrīva:** Śyāma dāsī. **Prabhupāda:** Śyāma dāsī, secretary. And who is treasurer? **Hayagrīva:** Hṛṣīkeśa. **Prabhupāda:** Hṛṣīkeśa. And what is Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja's position? **Hayagrīva:** He is *maṭha* commander? **Devotee 1:** Prime minister. **Śyāma:** Advisor. Advisor? **Hayagrīva:** General advisor, *maṭha* commander. **Prabhupāda:** The *maṭha* commander... Of course, so far the management of the New Vrindaban affairs is concerned, that is within *maṭha* commander's jurisdiction? **Hayagrīva:** I don't know. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. ***Maṭha* commander means the, everything of that place under his command.** **Hayagrīva:** That's not good. Then advisor is better. Advisor would be better. **Prabhupāda:** Advisor means his advice will be final? **Hayagrīva:** Advice final? That means the advice would be depending on the president. **Prabhupāda:** Confirmed by the president. So honorary advisor. Advice *gratis*? **Hayagrīva:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** (Chuckling) No. Another thing is that, as I suggested, that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, **being *sannyāsī*, he should be given the top post to give honor to the position of a sannyāsī. Otherwise in our society there is no meaning of a *sannyāsī*.** **Hayagrīva:** So you want him to be president? **Prabhupāda:** I think he should be, like that. You become secretary, and Śyāma dāsī become assistant secretary. Of course, everything should be decided in a meeting, and president maybe have as a casting vote, but the decision of the meeting will be actually the decision. **Not that president autocracy, no. **Or he may be president, you may be vice president and others, Śyāma dāsī, secretary, and treasurer he is.** From *sampradāya* point of view, *sannyāsī* has to be given the top post.** Do you think he will overrule you? (Laughs)... So I think... Then the difficulty is that you say that whatever you decide, he says no? **Hayagrīva:** If I don't want this tree to be cut down and he says, "Cut down the tree," does the tree get cut down? That's what I want to know. I say, "I want this tree to stay here." He says, "We want to burn it for firewood." Now does the tree stay or does it go? **Prabhupāda:** Well, if... This deposition is very difficult to solve. (laughing) You want to stay, and he wants to burn it. (laughing) **Hayagrīva:** Yes. I mean it will come down to something very basic like this, something very simple. Now you said that according to you it should be burned. According to you... If the president is in charge, then if he says to cut it down, it gets cut down. **Prabhupāda:** No. **The committee. The majority decision will be...** **Hayagrīva:** That's democracy. **That's democracy. **That's no good. **Prabhupāda:** Democracy? This is the age of... **Hayagrīva:** **I thought you said we should have enlightened monarchy.** **Prabhupāda:** No. **Monarchy is out of date now. When you form a committee...** But what can I say? If you disagree in that way, then... If you have to live together, you have to work together; if you disagree in that way, it will be a difficult job. **Hayagrīva:** Well, I don't care. I'll leave it up to you then. I'll leave it up to you. You can do what you want. **Prabhupāda:** No... You... My... I have explained. He is... As a *sannyāsī*, he should live everywhere temporarily just like I live temporarily. *Aniketa*. **A *sannyāsī* should not have a permanent place. Anywhere he goes, temporary. So because you think that his service is required, then he should remain here. Otherwise, as he has accepted *sannyāsa* order, he should travel, go and preach.** And especially nowadays, I cannot go everywhere. He can go, and he can recruit members. He can make propaganda of New Vrindaban to many persons, to the, I mean to say, foundations. As I have suggested, make pamphlet. So he can do outside work very nicely for developing Vṛndāvana. **Hayagrīva:** **How much of his time do you think should be spent doing this?** **Prabhupāda:** Which one? **Hayagrīva:** Preaching and traveling. **Prabhupāda:** **He should always preach and travel. Always.** There is immense field here. He should convince people that we are developing such centers. And you make a nice literature, picture. You go. He is educated. He is intelligent. He has studied our philosophy. He can go and speak. **Hayagrīva:** But he shouldn't stay here at all. **Prabhupāda:** No. He can come. He stay for some time and go, in that way. That... When he comes here you take his advice, what to do, and then you execute in that way. The final is yourself, whatever you do. He will come and... Now, for developing this center we must require so many things. So he can do the outside work... So we have to develop this center from outside work and inside work. **Outside work means to draw sympathy of the people, to draw money for development. **This is also required. We have got a very big scheme. It is not possible that by one man's earning we can do that. It is not possible. **We require millions of dollars for developing. **If we want to construct here temples, at least seven temples, nicely, so that requires huge amount. **So outsiders' sympathy must be there. **There is no scarcity of money in your country. Simply they have to be educated that "We are doing something very nice. Please come and help." And that will be nice, in my opinion, that let him come, stay here for one month, again go out for two months, again come here. And he sees how things are going on. He suggests. Now you decide whether his suggestion will be accepted or not. Then I am there, of course. If there is some suggestion, good suggestion. then my order will be final. In that way we have to develop this. **Hayagrīva:** Well, are you leaving the decision up to me or what? Are you leaving the decision up to me? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Local management, your decision, yes...**People must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes. So make literature. Make nice literature with picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain *brahmacārī*, not to marry...They can also take up. ***Brahmācari* and *sannyāsī* is meant for moving. Yes. *Gṛhastha* cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the *brahmacārīs*, they will go and beg contribution. A *sannyāsī* will make the situation favorable.** Just like if now a little more, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some *brahmacārī* goes, that "We come from the..." ...So he remains as consultant. Your proposal, that you remain president, he is secretary, and treasurer, and he is consultant so long he is here and when he comes. **Hayagrīva:** So he can be... He'll be general supervisor? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Naturally when he comes, he becomes overhead everyone, when he comes, because he is a *sannyāsī*. **Just like here, when I am present, you take all final decision from me, so that should be the honor of the *sannyāsī*.** But he should actually... He is not in charge of this place. Just like in other centers the president, secretary, are in charge. **Hayagrīva:** So that's not called *maṭha* commander. That's called general supervisor. **Prabhupāda:** He will be, for the time being, the superintendent of the society. He will go everywhere and see and report me what, how things are going on. And then we are going to make a central committee gradually. Everything will be done. Let us work very seriously and sincerely. Everything will come out. **Hayagrīva:** So then Śyāma dāsī is our treasurer..., secretary. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And he is treasurer, Hṛṣīkeśa? **Hayagrīva:** He's treasurer and temple commander. **Prabhupāda:** No, what...? You president, she is secretary, and then? Treasurer? **Hayagrīva:** He could be also vice president or temple... Well, there has to be a second charge, another person in charge. **Prabhupāda:** That you select, who should be vice president. **Hayagrīva:** Temple commander. **Prabhupāda:** No. Because you president, you can select out of all the workers... **Hayagrīva:** Not many. **Prabhupāda:** ...who will be nicely representing you. That's your trust. **Hṛṣīkeśa:** There will be more workers. More will come. There are more people coming all the time, aren't they? **Hayagrīva:** Well, if they'll stay on a permanent basis. **Devotee:** Why not? It's such a nice place. **Hayagrīva:** Yes, but I mean all this time we only... We don't have... Not many on a permanent basis. **Devotee:** You won't be leaving until September. You won't be leaving until September? **Hayagrīva:** Well, I don't know. I may. [break] **Prabhupāda:** ...Kali-yuga, everything should be managed by society. In *Bhāgavata* also. Yes. **Hayagrīva:** Oh, democracy. In Kali-yuga, democracy. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Society. Body. **Hayagrīva:** This is not best. **This is not best. You mention that in the books, that this is not very good.** **Prabhupāda:** **This is not very good in this sense... But at that time one man was so advanced that his order was perfect. **Actually these kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit and others, they were consulting learned *brāhmaṇas*, not that they were actually autocrat. No. They used to consult how the government should be conducted. **Kīrtanānanda:** They had a council of *brāhmaṇas*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, council of *brāhmaṇas*. Yes. The *brāhmaṇas*, they are not politicians, but **they would give from *śāstra* direction, "You are a king. You do like this."** **Kīrtanānanda:** There were instances when the king wouldn't follow the *brāhmaṇas*, so they were thrown out, weren't they? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. There were such instances also. Just like Prthu Mahārāja. His father was dethroned. I think same thing was in England also, the knights. If they liked, they dethroned the king. **Kīrtanānanda:** Not exactly the knights. They were more... **Prabhupāda:** Noblemen. Yes. The knights are different? **Kīrtanānanda:** Yes. Knights were fighting men. **Satyabhāmā:** They're warriors. Knights were like *kṣatriya*. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Oh. And noblemen? **Kīrtanānanda:** They were the lords. They were... **Satyabhāmā:** There were no *brāhmaṇas*, though. (laughs) **Śyāma:** There were bishops. **Kīrtanānanda:** Not exactly *brāhmaṇas*. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them. **Prabhupāda:** Aristocrats.** **The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called *zamindari*. [break] **Hayagrīva:** Well, in order to develop the place properly, we're going to need people who are dedicating themselves, not just fly-by-night, people who come and stay for a week and then go. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, they will come. **Hayagrīva:** But we're going to need people who stay here permanently. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Some people will... At least fifty men should live here permanently. That I shall arrange. **Hayagrīva:** Fifty. **Prabhupāda:** Fifty at least. Otherwise this big property, how it can be managed? At least fifty men. At least. It may go to two hundred. **Kīrtanānanda:** On this property? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Devotee:** Haribol. **Prabhupāda:** This whole property. We have to manage so many temples. **Kīrtanānanda:** The conservation people estimate that this land will support eighteen people. **Hayagrīva:** Well, that's materialists. **Kīrtanānanda:** Thirty people, I think. **Hayagrīva:** That's a materialistic calculation. **Kīrtanānanda:** **So if you want one cow for every person, it would only support eighteen cows.** **Prabhupāda:** **Eighteen cows? The whole property?** **Kīrtanānanda: If you want them to be self-sufficient, you have to grow grain for them for the winter.** **Prabhupāda:** All right. Let eighteen people first of all. Then we shall share, eighteen people. You see? **Hayagrīva:** One cow per person. We're all going to end up with the gout. **Prabhupāda:** No. They don't calculate one cow, one person. They calculate only cow. And that does not mean eighteen persons will only remain. **Hayagrīva: I think a cow can do four or five people nicely.** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Why not? No... I calculated, one cow per one person means the milk products he can sell, he can get other necessities of life in that way. Yes. And otherwise, one cow's milk, it can be shared by ten people at least. **Hayagrīva:** **So eighteen cows, that's 180 people. I mean, could support that many people on the farm.** **Prabhupāda:** Not support. **Devotee:** Give them milk. **Hayagrīva:** Oh, give them milk. **Prabhupāda:** Milk, yes. Milk products. **Kīrtanānanda:** **I think you could keep fifty cows on this property if you bought your grain and hay from outside.** **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **That we have to do. We cannot get everything. If we construct temple, we will require so many things. It is not possible to be self-sufficient within this land. We have to get so many things outside. That means we have to get money from outside. **Yes. **Satyabhāmā:** Can we put requests in the next news, next New Vrindaban newsletter, for people who, devotees who are interested that they should come? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Satyabhāmā:** Because many people don't know that they can come, that there's any facility or that they are wanted here. **Hayagrīva:** Well, there is no facility. **Prabhupāda:** Now first of all... **Satyabhāmā:** The barn. **Prabhupāda:** ...repair that barn immediately so you can... At least ten people can live there. **Satyabhāmā:** If there were people here, then facilities could be built. But if there are no people... **Prabhupāda:** You'll get everything, men and money both. **Hayagrīva:** Have you any plans yet to go to England? Is anything definite? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That plan is pending. But I have just now received letter from Mukunda that they are negotiating three houses. Out of that, one they must get. And if they invite me, then I shall go. That is already settled. But I don't wish to go unless they have got their own house. I have waited so long, so I don't wish to go as a third person. I must go... Just like I have come here definite, New Vrindaban, similarly, when they get nice temple I go and open it. **Kīrtanānanda:** Then it may be some time yet. **Prabhupāda:** (chuckles) And that *mataji*, she has taken land. I don't like that idea. Some **Hindus are supporting. I don't want a Hindu temple. Our constitution is different. We want everyone.** Kṛṣṇa consciousness is for everyone. It is not a Hindu propaganda. People may not misunderstand. And actually, till now in our society there is not a single other Hindu than me. (laughter) Is that not? Spiritual Communism, Moscow, June 22, 1971: Conversation with Professor Kotovsky