Prabhupāda: Yes. In our childhood, we saw every village, every town, the transcendental knowledge. Any common man could speak about Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Lord Kṛṣṇa. And the system was—still there are, but practically closed now—that in the evening, in the village, everyone should assemble in a place to hear messages from Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa, especially, because these two books can be understood by common man. Not Vedānta philosophy was discussed. So my maternal uncle’s was in the suburb of Calcutta, about ten miles from our house. So sometimes when we used to go there, so in the evening after taking their meals, by eight o’clock, they would go to a place, assemble, and hear about Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavata. And they should discuss while coming home, and they should go; they would go to bed thinking that memory. So they’ll sleep also Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata. Yes, and dream also Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata. You see? This was the system. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ.

This is a verse in Sanskrit spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Fourth Chapter, verse number ten. Vīta-rāga means “freed from attachment.” Bhaya means fearfulness, and krodha means anger. So being freed from these material qualities. In the material existence, at the present moment, we are very much attached to the material enjoyment. That is called rāga. And if we cannot fulfill our desires, then there is krodha, anger. And accompanied by krodha and attachment, there is always a tendency of fearfulness. So Kṛṣṇa says… “Kṛṣṇa” means… When I speak Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. So man-mayā, when one becomes attached to God, giving up the attachment of this material sense pleasure, when one becomes… Attachment must be there, either this way or that way. If we do not become attached to the Supreme Being, then we must be attached to this material enjoyment. Therefore it is said vīta-rāga, “Giving up the attachment of this material world, when you transfer your attachment to Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Being,” man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ… Upāśrita means “taking shelter of Me.” Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa or His representative, there is no possibility of being detached from this material enjoyment. Bahavaḥ. Bahavaḥ means many. Jñāna-tapasā: by knowledge and austerities. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā.

Prabhupāda: As the karmīs, they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs. Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs. So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs, they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi-brahma, “Brahman with designation.” But their central point is this body. That… This bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī, it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti, this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti. So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs, they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti, to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ. After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection.

Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, the labor class man is supposed to be the fourth-class man. First-class man, intelligentsia, very intelligent, learned. Or intelligent—one who can understand up to God. To understand God requires great intelligence. So first intelligent class of men, up to, they are called brāhmaṇa. The next-intelligent class man, those who give protection to the society, kṣatriya. And the third class, those who produce food and distribute. They are third class. And other, all others, they are fourth class.

Prabhupāda: Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. Anartha means… Artha means which is essential, artha. So anartha means just the opposite. So our present material condition is that we have increased some unwanted things, anartha. Therefore we have been entangled. Just like yesterday I was speaking with that president. He was thinking the problem of economics. And what is the problem? There is no problem. Anywhere, any part of the world you live, you just have some land and some animals. Animals means cow. Other animals also you can keep. There is no harm. But cows must be there, animals. And you cannot destroy the cows. If you want to eat meat… That is the Indian system. Indian system, for meat-eaters, there is concession. Just like for sex life there is concession, similarly, for meat-eater also, there is concession. And for drunkards there is concession. Not impractical. Supposing one is drunkard, meat-eater, if I say all of a sudden, “Stop it,” if he is not sober, he will not accept it. Just like in India there was prohibition. Gandhi, by his sentiment… There was no, I mean to say, education. He wanted to make all of a sudden stop. So there was illicit drinking. Illicit manufacture of wine increased so much that government saw that “We are losing the excise duty. These people are distilling illicit liquor.” So now government, to save money, now they are manufacturing, and inducing people, “All right, you go on drinking.”

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Goloka-nadha[?]. One is trying to go to back to home, back to Godhead. A little discrepancy… Mahārāja Bhārata? Yes, he became deer. Therefore we should be very careful. That is the instruction. Even Mahārāja Bhārata, he fell down. So therefore how much careful we should be. These are the instructions to become careful. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ, always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will save you. That Kṛṣṇa chanting and hearing, that will keep us safe. Example is given, just like a polluted woman is doing all household work, but she is always thinking when she will meet with her paramour at night. This example. Similarly, we may be engaged in different material activities, but if we keep our faith in Kṛṣṇa, then it will save us. It is possible. Just like the example: the woman is engaged in household affairs very diligently, but she is always thinking when she will meet her paramour.

Prabhupāda: They will try to make adjustments with material nature, but everything will be failure. [break] …hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā. They’ll never be able to adjust it. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, chewing the chewed. That’s all. [break] …first of all adjustment to lie down in the skyscraper, and now they are coming to the ground. Why they have come to the ground? Punaḥ punaś carvita. Sometimes on the ground, sometimes the sky. [break] Reject and accept. They reject the stool and urine and then accept it. They do like that. [laughing] [break] Paper [indistinct], it is rejected. It cannot be utilized. In India still the system is they use metal; when it is broken, you can sell it. They take half price and supply new. They use metal pots, on this understanding that “When it is broken and old, we can exchange with new plates.” And this kind of bowls you have to throw away. You cannot utilize.

Hayagrīva: Well that’s the end of Kierkegaard. Prabhupāda: That’s all. We will continue? Hayagrīva: It’s up to you. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hayagrīva: Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? Prabhupāda: No. Stop. Hayagrīva: Stop? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Hayagrīva: Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go…, we travel. Prabhupāda: Oh, that’s all right. How many are there? Hayagrīva: How many are left? Prabhupāda: [laughs] Volumes?

So there is śāsana. Śāsana means government. Śās-dhātu I have several times explained. Śās-dhātu means ruling. Śās-dhātu. From śās-dhātu the word has come, śāsana. There are many other words. From śās-dhātu is śāstra. And from śās-dhātu, śastra. From śās-dhātu, śāsanam. The Sanskrit words are coined from the dhātu verb. So śās-dhātu means ruling. So there is ruling. You cannot think that you are independent. There is government. If you disobey the ruling, the government has got police department, and if you are still disobedient there will be military department. You cannot disobey the rulings of the government. Similarly, this government, God’s government, there are so many things—government officers, department rulings. Don’t think that there was a chunk and immediately there was… Nonsense. It is not chunk. [laughs] It is regular government. Just like we have here a small place. In Hawaii you have got so many government officers, rulers. And do you think such a vast cosmic manifestation there is no ruling? Just see how poor thought. There is ruling. Don’t think all of a sudden that… Any sane man can understand that things are being carried systematically—the seasonal changes, the seasonal fruits and flowers, the sunrise, the moonrise, the birds, death, old age, disease—everything systematically. And is that happening by chance? Why by chance one does not live forever? There is no such chance, sir. There is ruling. You cannot ...

Prabhupāda: [Bengali] [break] Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Begin. If we make Hindi plate, Los Angeles, and send it to… Rāmeśvara: We could do it in Los Angeles, but it would be more costly. Gopāla says that the main concern with the Hindi books is keeping the cost as low as possible so it can be sold in India. Prabhupāda: No, plate-making, we have got our machine, so it will be cheaper. Rāmeśvara: The price that he is getting in India is very cheap. He says he can do twenty pages a day, composing. He’s got one place in Vṛndāvana that he uses and another place in Delhi. So if each place is doing one different book, two books can be done simultaneously at twenty pages every day. Prabhupāda: Twenty pages, and cost? Rāmeśvara: It costs about a dollar a page. Prabhupāda: Where? In…? Rāmeśvara: In India. To compose. Prabhupāda: And there?