Room Conversation — May 2, 1977, Bombay

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I was thinking to…, if I had some free time, that I could work on writing some essay about nationalism. 

Prabhupāda: Why? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you’ve been mentioning so many times about how foolish the…, so many people are. Under the banner of nationalism they are basing their whole life. 

Prabhupāda: But they’ll not hear. If you forbid the dogs, “Don’t bark,” it is like that. Why waste time? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. 

Prabhupāda: He’ll go on with all politics. Negative, as soon as you say, they’ll neglect. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some subject matter…? 

Prabhupāda: It requires training. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some subject matter…? 

Prabhupāda: Just like so much training we are giving; still, there is falldown. So simply by saying… [Bhakti-caru enters and pays obeisances] 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you had… There was a newspaper article about a few weeks ago, and you had said that something could be written on this subject. That’s the only reason I… 

Prabhupāda: [Bengali] Hmm. 

Bhakti-caru: [Bengali] [offers obeisances and leaves] 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any subject that would be good to write on? 

Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got so many subjects, positive. Read our books and present it in a different way. You can write intelligently—that’s not bad—just to induce them… 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I… 

Prabhupāda: But they will not hear. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, right. 

Prabhupāda: Just see. This man did not even reply even. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I call him now? 

Prabhupāda: No, what is use? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he… I mean, he’s not interested. That’s fact. Even if I call him on the telephone, I can insult him, but that’s about all. So what’s the purpose? 

Prabhupāda: To make another enemy. Just see. Even Shriman Narayan and other, I repeatedly indirectly said that Gandhi made a great mistake. So who hears me? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. If he was to hear that, it means his whole…, he himself has to admit that half of his life he’s spoiled, ‘cause he’s been following Gandhi, praising Gandhi his whole lifetime. They are afraid to admit… 

Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They remain blind, yes. They like to remain blind. Their leaders are blind, and the followers want to remain blind. This is māyā. Unless there is training… This is instruction, ādau gurvāśrayam. If he doesn’t understand the aim of life… It is meant for the most fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhram…, kona bhāgyavān jīva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. But still, as far as possible, we shall take opportunity to try to convince him. Just see. This man is with us for the last six months. He is not ready to sacrifice his hair. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some dead stool. 

Prabhupāda: Eh? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some lump of stool on the head. Even that, he won’t give up. 

Prabhupāda: No, what is the value of this hair? But it cannot be… He has got some conviction, “I am not ready still for give up this hair.” Did he not say like that? What he’ll do? He’ll be forced to give up his hair and the body on which the hair has grown. Still, he’ll not do. Obstinate dogs. This is their position. They are not human being. Mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. These are the terms. They apply. One thing I… Take your note. You can write one letter which will be presented to Shriman Narayan when Gopāla Kṛṣṇa goes. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I’ll take dictation. I’ll get my pad. [break] 

Prabhupāda: Not only here, but in your country they are giving trouble in different way. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Definitely are. 

Prabhupāda: Whole world. In one place in one way, in another place in another way. Simply harassment. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the planet where one is first… 

Prabhupāda: Duḥkhālayam. Still, they are trying to…, the heaven here. This is mūḍha. He’ll never become happy; he’ll try and try again and again. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]: again and again trying for the same purpose, which will never be fulfilled. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very foolish. Somehow, though, it seems that if we remain true to everything you’ve taught and remain true to Bhagavad-gītā and to Kṛṣṇa, that somehow we can counteract the entire world of atheists. Seems possible. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This movement is so powerful, this message is so pure, that it seems that no matter how big the opposition is, still, it can conquer. We can be victorious. Arjuna was victorious. There’s a wonderful statement in the beginning… You make this… It’s stated in the Tenth Canto. Parīkṣit Mahārāja is appreciating Arjuna, and he’s saying, “How…, how could he defeat such gigantic…?” He’s comparing to the ocean the battlefield. He says, “Bhīṣma, such a big fish…” 

Prabhupāda: Timiṅgila. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. 

Prabhupāda: In the ocean there are fishes. You cannot see them. Big fishes [makes gulping sound]. From the skeleton I saw in Calcutta Museum… 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whale skeleton? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whales. 

Prabhupāda: Whale or some fish skeleton. As big as this room, it was hanging. I think it is there. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in the Museum of Natural History in New York they have a whale that is at least twice the length of this room. 

Prabhupāda: Just see. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the height is at least three times the height of this room. 

Prabhupāda: So they can swallow, big, big fish. There is immense space in the sea. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, the one in the Museum of Natural History in New York, they didn’t even leave the skeleton. They recreated the body so it looks just real. We went with Bhāradvāja and Rāmeśvara Mahārāja and myself for studying for the doll project. We were looking at how they made everything very authentic. It’s amazing. They even have underwater scenes. Of course, there’s no water, but it appears to be underwater by the way they make the diorama. [pause] So this evening the… They’ll be coming in to see you, the managers. 

Prabhupāda: So let them begin the foundation. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Let it go on slowly, but it must begin. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. What is the idea there? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, what is the idea in “Even if it goes slowly, it must begin”? 

Prabhupāda: No, if there is no money, it can go slowly. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But at least the work should be there. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something should be seen to be going on. 

Prabhupāda: Somebody has promised there. So as you get help, you go on. But it must be begun. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So tonight we can discuss it. [break] 

Prabhupāda: …the mess. He has paid only one hundred rupees from his pocket, and he’s everything, and he has squandered so much. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? 

Prabhupāda: The Sanjay Gandhi. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That, I haven’t read that yet. Is he going to be put in prison for…? 

Prabhupāda: I think so. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about her? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about his mother? 

Prabhupāda: Well, mother, personally what did she do, I do not know. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today there’s a little swelling in your… It seems to come and go. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems to come and go. Is it bothering you? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it disturbing? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? 

Prabhupāda: From last night things have gone bad. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What in particular, Śrīla Prabhupāda? 

Prabhupāda: There is spasm in the heart. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the heart. Still? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm. If I lie down straight… Lie down means spasm. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you lie down, then it’s staying. And if you sit up? 

Prabhupāda: Sit up, not so painful. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe some gentle massaging on the heart would be good. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Morning he gave me little massage. So there was little relief. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gave you massage on the chest? 

Prabhupāda: No, no, head, here… 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember, in Los Angeles a long time ago you were having some pain in the heart. At that time we massaged your heart gently and you felt relief. 

Upendra: Some workmen have come. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Upendra: Some workmen and one devotee have come to do something to the drain. 

Prabhupāda: Repair. That is their daily business. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It’s an excuse for darśana, I think. [Prabhupāda chuckles] 

Upendra: I think they have to drain something, some drain pipes. They’re letting the water out. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that massaging, I remember… 

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. [break] …or [indistinct]. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A little difficult. Difficult. Risky. 

Prabhupāda: Risky. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Under the circumstances… Oh. 

Upendra: He says [indistinct]. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [to Upendra:] Yeah, I’ll be back. Tell him it’ll be ready tomorrow. 

Prabhupāda: What is the…? [break] …already a artificial kidney. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. For two years. 

Prabhupāda: So it is not working. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not sufficiently, no. How can it work? How can an artificial kidney be expected to work like a real kidney? I mean, they want to hold back time. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think that they can defeat the time… 

Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature’s way. 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Time factor. They cannot defeat the time factor. They want to make an old man a young man, without spiritual qualities. Only Kṛṣṇa can do that. What a rascal! I saw on the front page, there was one Muslim leader. He died. But he’s being lauded as a great humanitarian welfare worker. And he gave one statement. He ended, “I have been an atheist, and I will die an atheist.” He said, “Burn my body. Do not let it be at any ceremony. No plaque, nothing.” He was against the Muslim making the women keep their heads covered, and it said he was a great worker for humanitarian rights. [Prabhupāda chuckles] Just like they praised that Dr. Ambedkar for burning the Manu-smṛti. Manu-saṁhitā was burned, and he’s praised, “A great man.” It is coming to the time now when if a man is God conscious, he’s considered the enemy of the people, and if he’s an atheist, then he’s praised for being humanitarian. Therefore they don’t recognize you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They should be giving you all awards and praise. But actually they don’t. Of course, we don’t care for their awards. And the real intelligentsia, the professors, they’re giving all praise. But anyway, there’s no doubt they should be giving you Nobel Prize. So many prizes should be coming. But because they’re demons, they don’t give these awards, purposely. [end] 

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