Evening Darśana

Room Conversation
August 10

Atreya Ṛṣi: …about Gandhi. 

Prabhupāda: This Indira Gandhi? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, Mahatma Gandhi. When I was in America three months ago, this was in a magazine, a new study. And it was very interesting because it showed that how subconsciously this man was very much, very much affected by sex, influenced. After I read it, I understood your comments a lot better, because it was a very frank study of details of his life and… 

Prabhupāda: You sit down, I’ll show you. Like this. [referring to massage] 

Nava-yauvana: I should sit in front here. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, you stand and do it. Do it but do it strongly. Or you can do it like this, just comfortable. Comfortable. He was used to getting massage from woman. 

Prabhupāda: Acchā? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is known. He used to have women devotees who… 

Prabhupāda: No, it was known to everyone. And that was remarked that his granddaughter, I mean granddaughter-in-law, he was always accompanied, resting his head on their shoulder, he was walking. That was remarked by… 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but they were not his granddaughter, his relative, and it was the wife of a relative. And he believed in honesty. 

Prabhupāda: He was very sexually inclined. That is written by him. While his father was dying, he was engaged in sex with his wife. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. That is right. And therefore he felt very guilty toward sex. He was artificially depressing it. Therefore this article was pointing out that in his old age he was getting his satisfaction in a perverted way. 

Prabhupāda: By touching their body. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: That is right. And at night he would sleep with them in the same bed. 

Prabhupāda: Acchā? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: He would get shivers. He would get shivers, and as a result of the shiver he would be covered with this woman. And her husband will object. Her husband would say, “Gandhijī, why do you have to do this?” You know? He would say, “You can see that I have no sexual inclination. This I want to do to prove that I have no sexual inclination.” 

Prabhupāda: To show transcendental. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but he was cheating himself. He was sincere, but he was completely misguided, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems from that article. 

Prabhupāda: Harāv abhakta. So our formula is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one is not devotee, he has no good qualifications. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, and he suffered all his life. He wanted good qualification, but he was concocting. He was taking some from śāstra and he was concocting some. Because he did not understand the śāstra properly, he rejected some of it. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Because he did not have the blessing of Lord Caitanya, he did not understand it, so he rejected some of it, and as a result he was concocting. When he went to Africa, to South Africa, he started the movement there, this nonviolence… 

Prabhupāda: Therefore it was failure. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: It was a failure. 

Prabhupāda: Twenty years he tried, it was failure. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It was actually a very frank article, and after I read it… 

Prabhupāda: Who wrote it? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Somebody by the name of Mehta. He was obviously a very great scholar, because this magazine is very first class magazine. It’s not a cheap magazine. And it was written very nicely. Somebody by the name of Mehta. He’s a Dr. Mehta. In the New Yorker magazine, New Yorker. 

Prabhupāda: He has written one book, My Experiment With Truth, that truth is truth, but it is very [indistinct] thing. That means he did not know what is truth. 

[devotees chant japa] [long pause—child says haribol

Prabhupāda: He says “Haribol”? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. 

Child: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! 

Prabhupāda: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! [devotees chant japa

Child: Haribol! [child makes sounds for some time] 

Prabhupāda: Let him play. 

Dayānanda: [to child, who is still chanting haribol] Are you chanting? 

Prabhupāda: Europe begins from Turkey? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: From here? 

Prabhupāda: No, Europe. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Europe has small portion in Europe… Turkey has a small portion in Europe and a large portion in Asia Minor. Anatolia. 

Prabhupāda: And Russia also? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Russia is also above Turkey. Parts of it is in Europe, part of it is in Russia…, is in Asia. 

Jñānagamya: Devotees are doing very well in Moscow, Prabhupāda? Is that right? They are distributing books there? 

Prabhupāda: It is not very good. But they have got some orders. 

Nava-yauvana: So when we preach to people we should first convince them that God is the supreme controller, the supreme proprietor. Then further understanding can come. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a supreme controller. That you have to admit. You are not independent. Why they foolishly think independent? What is the reason they’re foolishly thinking independent? What is their independence? Nobody is independent. So why they are foolishly thinking independent? You first challenge them. They are not independent. Are they independent? So why they foolishly declare independent? 

Jñānagamya: They are ignorant. 

Prabhupāda: So that is the position. Then? They are in ignorance, and they are leading the society as scientist, philosopher, politician. That is misleading. They cannot go even freely in the so-called moon planet excursion or Mars. Still, they are declaring independence. What is their independence? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Rascaldom. 

Nandarāṇī: If someone accepts his dependence on God, then what is the second step? In preaching, so someone has accepted, “Yes, we are dependent on God,” but actually they have no knowledge who God is. 

Prabhupāda: Then give them knowledge from Bhagavad-gītā. If you accept dependence on God, then you take instruction from God, how you’ll be happy. Just like the child. The child knows he’s fully dependent on parents. So he’s fully obeying the orders of the parents, then he’s happy, naturally. The father, mother, knows how to take care of the child and they’re happy. And by nature they’re dependent on father and mother. So they are happy. Mother says, “My dear child, sit down.” He will sit down. By nature. 

Dayānanda: But some people are sectarian in their idea of God. 

Prabhupāda: What is sectarian? Every sect the child is dependent on the parents. What do you mean by sectarian? Does it mean the Hindu child does not depend on the parents; the Muslim child depends on the parents? Everyone depends on the parents. Either he may be Hindu child or Muslim child or Christian child, that is the nature of the child. Similarly, you may be Hindu, you may be Muslim, you are dependent on God. This is a fact. What is sectarian? Can the Muslims say that “No, no, we are not dependent on God”? Can the Christians say like that? We have to take the general condition: everyone is dependent on God. Where is the question of sectarian? Now this cloud… It is clouded, everybody is expecting some rain. Does it mean the rain is Hindu rain or Muslim rain or Christian rain? Dependent on cloud. Everyone is expecting rain, it doesn’t matter whether he’s Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Why they declare independence? Hmm? 

Jñānagamya: They say independence means you don’t need anything. 

Prabhupāda: What is that? 

Nava-yauvana: He’s trying to define independence, and he said independence means you don’t need anything. 

Prabhupāda: What is that? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: If you have no needs. Independence means that you have no need for anything else. 

Prabhupāda: No, even if you have needs, if you can supply need, your needs you can supply yourself, then you can call independent. But that is not the position. You cannot get the supplies independently. Why you are expecting cloud? Because if there is rainfall, there will be vegetation. Then you will be able to grow food. So you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? If every step, you are dependent, why do you declare independence? What is this foolishness? What is their answer? 

Hari-śauri: Well, they think they have some independence because they have to make so many decisions about how to live and how to operate society. 

Prabhupāda: He’ll answer for them. [talking about child?] Law of gravitation. What is your independence? Are you independent? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: There are all sorts of rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One kind of rascal is the mūḍha kind, who likes to enjoy. He thinks he is independent. 

Prabhupāda: That is also dependent. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but he thinks, “I can eat chicken or eggs or fish.” 

Prabhupāda: That’s all right, that is dependent. Wherefrom the chicken comes? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: From the fields. 

Prabhupāda: Fields? No, it comes from the chicken. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Well yes, from the chicken, yes. 

Prabhupāda: So therefore he has to depend on other chicken. [laughter] Where is his independence? 

Atreya Ṛṣi: But I can kill them and eat them. 

Prabhupāda: That means if there is chicken you can kill. If there is supply of chicken, then you can kill. Otherwise, where is the opportunity of killing and eating? 

Jñānagamya: You cannot kill all the chickens. 

Prabhupāda: No, even they kill—they are killing—but killing facility will be there if there is chicken. Just like a tiger in the jungle. They are very expert, but they do not get food daily. Because the other animals, they also know, that part of the jungle there is tiger. They avoid going there. So he doesn’t get daily food. He kills one animal and keeps it hidden and takes little, little. He cannot… They are always hungry, although they have got good strength. But where is the opportunity? And there is one small animal, he’s called feow.[?] As soon as the tiger gets out to find out some prey, this small animal warns, “feow.” The other animals will understand the tiger is coming. So despite getting good strength, good jaws, good nails, there is no food. He’s dependent. If God supplies him, then he’ll get opportunity. Otherwise, these nails and jaws and strength are useless. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: But if I have good intelligence, I can make many machines and put many eggs in them and have all the supplies of chicken that I want. 

Prabhupāda: That also that I have already explained: you depend on another chicken’s egg. You cannot manufacture the egg. That is my challenge, that you manufacture the egg by chemical combination and put into the machine. That you cannot do. Another living chicken must lay down the egg, then you can reclaim. You’re dependent. Where is your independence? Everywhere you are dependent. How you declare independence? Where is your independence? 

Dayānanda: They think that the countries that have the materialistic advancement or scientific advancements, that they are very well situated. 

Prabhupāda: Well, scientific advancement, all this nonsense you can say. Just like Iran. God has given the oil underneath the ground, you are so proud. But if God would not give you the oil, then you starve in the desert. Then talk of improvement, nonsense. You’re dependent on the oil. That is given by God. By God’s grace, you have got some stock of oil, and there is good demand for oil, then you are proud of making advancement. But depending on the oil. The oil is supplied by God. You’re dependent. Where is your independence? When the oil is finished, then your all pride is finished. Where is your independence? 

Dayānanda: But we do not believe in God, and still… 

Prabhupāda: Do or do not believe in God, but you are not independent, that’s a fact. You don’t believe or believe, it doesn’t matter. But you are dependent. You are not independent. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we are dependent on nature. 

Prabhupāda: That’s all right, but you cannot say that you are independent. That is the point that we are discussing. You call nature, I call God; it doesn’t make any difference. But you are dependent on something else. You can call it nature, but nature is also God’s nature. Anyway, accept nature. So, 

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
kartāham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

So take it, nature; nature is acting in her own way. So nature is not your father’s servant. So how do you declare independent, that I am everything? Even if you accept nature, you are not independent. That’s a fact. 

Atreya Ṛṣi: But I am not independent, but I am more dependent on my intelligence. 

Prabhupāda: What intelligence? If dependent, what is the meaning of intelligence? 

Dayānanda: Yes, I’m depending on my own intelligence to utilize everything for advancement, for my comfort and my strength and food. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything, if there is no everything, then what is the meaning of intelligence? 

Dayānanda: But I may develop more intelligence to create what I lack. 

Prabhupāda: That is theory. That is not fact. 

Dayānanda: But I’m saying that from the… [break] 

Prabhupāda: …by your intelligence. That is given by nature or God, whatever you say. That is not in your intelligence. 

Hari-śauri: God may have given us all the basic things, but it’s taken man’s intelligence to make the… 

Prabhupāda: That is all right, but if God