Prabhupāda: …mana, buddhi, ahaṅkāra. And then false identification, ahaṅkāra, then soul. And the soul is so fine. I have given the definition. How they can see there is soul?
Dr. Kapoor: But in the ātmā, you see… You have given a very beautiful description. The smaller the part—as they call it, potency—more powerful it becomes. So you see, they think that the bigger thing is more powerful, but here science has also proved that greater the potency, the smaller the dose, smaller the size. So similarly, as you describe that what is soul. It’s fractional, fractional, fractional, fractional.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is smaller than the atom.
Dr. Kapoor: Unlimited, the smallest fraction of anything, is soul.
Prabhupāda: One ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair.
Dr. Kapoor: Sir, even that has been measured by measuring instrument. I think it is… You can describe it, whether is smaller part, or infinite smallest part of an atom.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it has been measured out. The measurement is stated. It doesn’t… When the statement is there about the measurement of the soul, it was done. Otherwise how it is described in the śāstra?
[break] [on walk]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The last few days, as guests have been coming to greet you, practically everyone who you’ve had a conversation with has brought up this question, “What is good and what is bad, and what is sinful activity?”
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that people have great difficulty discriminating today between good and bad.
Prabhupāda: So, what is your answer?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You’ve answered very nicely that whatever the authority says is good is good, and whatever the supreme authority says is bad is bad. Independently of what our own way of thinking is, we have to ultimately answer to the supreme authority. Even that lady, she gave the example that in society certain things are good, but they’ve bent the law, that things which were once bad, they are now accepted as good. So you explained that whatever the authority says is good is good. So the only difference I can see is that the goodness and the badness that Kṛṣṇa has defined are eternal.
Prabhupāda: Bad is this material world, and good is spiritual world. In the material world the discrimination of good and bad is mental concoction.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mano-dharma.
Prabhupāda: Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakalī samāna.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So pious activity is that activity which brings us to the spiritual world, and impious activity, activity which roots us here? Or are even the pious activities of the material world considered bad?
Prabhupāda: Pious activities or impious activities in this material world, they are the same.
Yadubara: Does one have a better chance of reaching to the spiritual platform if he is performing pious activities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Chance—not sure. Just like charity is pious activities, but if the charity by chance it is given to a Vaiṣṇava, then it becomes a lift for spiritual. And charity given for opening hospital, it is the same—impious activity. People are inclined to do something pious just like opening a school, opening a hospital, and if you go to such person, that “We want to open a temple,” they will not give. “Ah, there are many temples.” As if there is no school. There are many schools; still, they will open a school and hospital. But if you go for some charity for opening a temple, “Oh, there are so many temples.”
Yadubara: Like last night everyone was giving money for these hospital programs, the meeting there.
Prabhupāda: Were there any book sale, our?
Yadubara: Some. I think that lady that you preached to the night before last, she bought a Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: She bought. [japa] [break]
Yadubara: …Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the single elements alone in the body do not have life. The blood does not have life, the air does not have life, and so on. How would you prove that all of them combined together don’t have life? How would you prove that?
Prabhupāda: No, no. We do not find in the water, in the air, in the fire, the five elements, you do not find there is life. So what is this, that life force? They are trying to prove that combination of this, there is life, but actually by analytical study we don’t find life. The first example is this breathing. Everyone is under the impression that breathing is life. So when the breathing is stopped, the air is stopped. Just make some artificial way of breathing; bring life.
Yadubara: They may say that that is only one aspect.
Prabhupāda: Every aspect you say, rascal. You take water, take fire. Where is life? Just like heat, heat in the body. Heat is fire. So everything you take which constitutes this body, analyze separately and find out life, where is life.
Yadubara: But they may say that a combination produces.
Prabhupāda: Combine it. Everything is there. You combine and produce life. Combination produces? Then you combine. Why don’t you combine and produce life? Simply speak like rascals. Take. The water is there, the air is there, the fire is there—you combine together. Now you are so much advanced in scientific knowledge, combine them and produce life. What is their answer?
Yadubara: They’ll say that they can’t do it.
Prabhupāda: Then why speak, rascal, that there is life? You cannot do. What you cannot do, why do you speak like a nonsense?
Yadubara: But they will say nature does it.
Prabhupāda: Nature? That means you are rascal. Nature is above you. Then worship nature. Be submissive. You are submissive already. It doesn’t matter whether you accept or not; nature is pulling you. Nature is stronger than you. There is no doubt about it. Then why you declare that you are independent? You are not independent. Foolishly declaring independence. As soon as you are dependent, you must have to accept God. You may not know who is God and what is God, but somebody who is controlling you, your activities, He is God.
Cyavana: Prabhupāda, in the early Fifties the scientists performed an experiment which substantiates their theory that life comes from matter, and they actually created a one-celled being. They made one cell which had life in it. It moved like an amoeba.
Prabhupāda: Then why do they not do now? What is the wrong now?
Cyavana: Well, they’ve done it. They can do it by creating certain conditions.
Prabhupāda: But why do they not do?
Cyavana: They use amino acids and water and electricity.
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Bluffing.
Cyavana: But this gave great strength to their theory that life can come from matter because they created a one-celled amoeba. They say they created it, that life actually came into it.
Prabhupāda: They said everything, but where is the proof?
Cyavana: Well, the scientists saw it.
Prabhupāda: Saw it? Now show us. They saw it at their home.
Cyavana: They put the chemicals, and then it moved. It became alive.
Prabhupāda: All rascals.
Yadubara: In so many years they haven’t done anything else.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Cyavana: No, that’s as far as they got, but it really boosted their theory, at least so that they thought they would be able to create life.
Prabhupāda: All rascals.
Dayānanda: There’s also a scientific argument against that, that there may have been the life conditions or the conditions conducive to life, so therefore life came, but not that that was produced by chemical combination. Just like there’s actually an opposing argument, scientific school, that opposes that idea that they actually produced the life itself.
Cyavana: Some of them said the life was already there in the water to begin with. In the water.
Prabhupāda: In the water, life there is; in the air, in… That is another thing. But life is different from the water. That is our proposal. [break] They are attracted by these varieties of material things, and when time comes he’s put into death. Everything is moved from his sight, and he accepts a body of a dog. [break] …to accept by compulsion a type of body according to his activities, that he does not. Now, that big, big minister, Pandit Jawaharlal, he spent so much time and energy for creating this. Now, if after death he has become a dog, then where is the benefit? You cannot say that he has not become a dog. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. One has to accept another body, and what kind of body one has to accept, who will say? The… His work, what he has done, that will take.
Cyavana: And when you asked him to join us, he said, “I cannot do it.”
Prabhupāda: No, no, join or not join… I mean to say that if I see that somebody has become dog next life, you cannot say not, he has not become a dog. You have no proof. [break] …create a kingdom that you’ll not be allowed to stay there in your kingdom, and by your action you have to accept another body. And what kind of body you are going to accept, you do not know. Therefore they deny next birth.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It’s just amazing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how the eternal spirit soul can become so implicated in this material world.
Prabhupāda: Implicated by desires. We are desiring always, constantly. So the desire makes your next body. Every living entity in this material world is desiring how to enjoy. What is your question? Eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the eternal spirit soul becomes so completely absorbed that he completely forgets about the future and simply he becomes absorbed in some temporary sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: That is material existence. Material existence means to satisfy senses. That is material existence. Don’t you see that everyone is planning for some material… Just that one man is the… Tamāla Kṛṣṇa was saying that he was eating motorcar. Just see. [laughter]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Grinding up a motorcar.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this? But he is desiring like that, that “I shall be famous man by eating motorcar.”
Gurudāsa: He’s desiring for fame.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can understand, “What is the use of this fame?” but he is desiring. This is going on. That is the cause of his bondage. This life he’s desiring to eat motorcar, next life he is desiring to eat something, enjoy something, varieties of mano-dharma, mental concoction, and that is his bondage. Kṛṣṇa is so kind; whatever he desires, he is given the facility: “All right, take it.”
Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it more natural to love someone else…
Gurudāsa: Is it more natural for someone else to enjoy or for ourselves to enjoy?
Prabhupāda: No, it is personal, our. You are desiring something, and you get the opportunity.
Gurudāsa: So then to love Kṛṣṇa is unnatural?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is natural, and everything else unnatural. The principle of loving Kṛṣṇa is distributed in so many ways. Instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, loving so many nonsense things, and we are becoming implicated. The principle is love, but instead of loving the right person, you are loving so many things. Hmm?
Cyavana: [referring to some plant they see?] Growing wild.
Dayānanda: You told me, “What is the use of becoming a paṇḍita?” So the other day I was in one shop, and the man was asking me about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one of the shop owners. So I told him one verse, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. He did not know it, but he called over one of his employees. He was a paṇḍita. He was working in the shop as a salesman. So I was thinking that he has become a paṇḍita…
Prabhupāda: Become a salesman.
Dayānanda: …but he’s just working in the shop as a salesman.
Prabhupāda: And he has become a servant of a person who does not know Sanskrit.
Dayānanda: Yes, he does not know anything, but he has become servant. [break]
Gurudāsa: …about some other paṇḍitas who wanted to get Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura out of the town. So two of his students, one posed as a betel seller and one as a potter. And when the men came to take, kick, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura out of the town, they first stopped to get some betel. And the betel seller was quoting Sanskrit verses, and then the potter was also quoting Sanskrit verses. So they thought, “If the betel seller and the potter of this town are such great paṇḍitas, what must Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura be like?” So they left the town immediately. [break] …Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the ability in man.
Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa is the ability in man. Kṛṣṇa is the ability…
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything.
Gurudāsa: Yes. Is it all right to think sometimes when there is some success that it’s more due to you than to Kṛṣṇa? Because you’ve taught us about Kṛṣṇa, you’ve taught us how to speak, etcetera. In other words, when there’s some success, can we think that it’s due to you more than to Kṛṣṇa, or both, or…
Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, both. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa one gets guru, and by the grace of guru one gets Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely seeking after Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him a guru, and the guru teaches him how to get Kṛṣṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees want to know what your greatest pleasure would be.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What your greatest pleasure would be; how you would want your disciples to…
Prabhupāda: You all become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, cent percent Kṛṣṇa conscious. [break] …that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let them have this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become happy. That’s all. [motorcyle passes and riders yell Prabhupāda’s name]
Gurudāsa: People are very more respectful in Delhi now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Friendly, respectful.
Prabhupāda: We have all respect. Amāninā mānadena. Even who has no respect, we give respect, everyone, not for his material position, but because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. [break] …are also coming here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Who, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Gargamuni’s vans, six vans?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He’s not scheduled to come. Perhaps later on. He had some program scheduled. Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the question is raised that Lord Caitanya predicted the holy name will be preached in every town and village throughout the world. So to what extent will it be preached?
Prabhupāda: That will depend on the preacher.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, will there be preaching centers in every town and village, or will it just be a question of traveling through and preaching to the people and ticking off that we’ve been there?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don’t think so.
Prabhupāda: Traveling is essential. If possible there may be centers.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But our ambition should not be simply to go to every town and village simply so that we can say we went to every town and village. We should actually try to…
Prabhupāda: No, why village? Everywhere you go, town, village, everywhere. Abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu, nitāi katiyā mohan, ghare ghare, kare dāna, like that. Abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu, nitāi katiyā mohan, ghare ghare durlabha prema, kare dāna. Brahmā durlabha prema kare dāna,[?] like that. So ghare ghare. Not only village to village but door to door. Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Preaching engagement is unlimited.
Prabhupāda: In the material world the poor man thinks, “Oh, this gentleman has got such big, big house. If I could have one.” Eh? And the spiritual world, without desiring there are so many big, big house we have got.
Gurudāsa: Everyone can ride in the airplane in the spiritual world because everything is a pleasure trip for Kṛṣṇa. You’ve written in a purport in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that in the Vaikuṇṭha planets everyone can ride in the airplanes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. [break] They say that when they’re combined, there will be life, but the way of analysis we suggest is not complete.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The fact remains that even if they have a completely combined body, say a dead body, they still can’t bring life back to it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if there is a body that’s already combined—say someone has just died—they still can’t bring life back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall go this way or that way? Eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, into the temple room. [break]
Dhanañjaya: [indistinct] Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So what is the news? Your wife and son?
Dhanañjaya: They are in Vṛndāvana, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The mukuṭa business is doing very well.
Prabhupāda: Producing nice mukuṭa?
Dhanañjaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So you return me my money. I gave twenty thousand? [laughter] Hmm?
Dhanañjaya: That will be returned. [end]