Morning Walk — November 21, 1975, Bombay

Yaśomatīnandana: …is talking about the Western philosopher. What about the modern Indian philosophers? 

Prabhupāda: They are followers of the Western philosophers. 

Brahmānanda: Same. 

Yaśomatīnandana: So then why was it saying in the Western world this and that? [break] 

Mennon: …to Śaṅkarācārya. Most of the Śaivites are Vaiṣṇavites only. There is no differentiation between a Śaivite and a Vaiṣṇavite. We use that [indistinct] just like this only. Even that [indistinct] you can see. But actually Śaivism has gone the underground. Viṣṇu temples are more prominent, and more people are getting results immediately. He is [indistinct] mundane people. He is helping them by solving… 


akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā
mokṣa kāma udāra dhīḥ
tivreṇa bhakti-yogena
yajeta paramam
[SB 2.3.10]

If anyone is aspirant of some material benefit and worships Kṛṣṇa, he gets it. And gradually, he gets Kṛṣṇa. Then when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he forgets all material profit. 

Girirāja: Like Dhruva Mahārāja. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svamin kṛtārtho ‘smi varaṁ na yace [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. No more birth. 

Mennon: Śaivites [indistinct] of Kṛṣṇa devotees only. [indistinct] devotee is there. This [Hindi] Bilvamaṅgala complained to Lord Kṛṣṇa, “Why You are not with me all along.” “It has taken eighteen janmas to get Me. Eighteen janmas. You have not done that much, so you have to wait long.” [break] 

Jayapatāka: Why did Kṛṣṇa have all the demigod worship put in the Vedas? 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Jayapataka: They put… Vyāsadeva put all the demigod worship in the Vedas. 

Prabhupāda: For the karmīs. Kṣipra bhavati… What is that? Kam kanta… 

Jayapatāka: Karmanaṁ siddhi. 

Prabhupāda: Karmānaṁ siddhi yajanti iha devatā. Who is interested to take bhakti immediately? Nobody is interested. 

Jayapatāka: They can get their material facilities from Kṛṣṇa also. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is recommended. First of all śāstra recommends that if you want this thing you worship this deity, this deity. In this way, at last it is said that you can get anything if you worship Kṛṣṇa. That is said. Akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ tivreṇa bhakti-yogena [SB 2.3.10]. That is for the purpose that if he wants to take advantage, material benefit from Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa bhajana will be there; gradually they will forget this material benefit. They will become pure devotee. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja became. Svamin kṛtārtho ‘smi vara na yace. 

Yaśomatīnandana: One must have certain qualifications to be able to come to the service of Kṛṣṇa? 

Prabhupāda: No. 

Yaśomatīnandana: Even if one is in the complete mode of ignorance he can… 

Prabhupāda: Yena tena prakārena manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet [Brs. 1.2.4]. Somehow or other, come to Kṛṣṇa. Kāmād prayat deśāt. Any way, come to Kṛṣṇa. 

Yaśomatīnandana: Then actually that means that it depends upon Kṛṣṇa’s devotee rather than Kṛṣṇa, because only by association… 

Prabhupāda: No, if he comes to Kṛṣṇa on any account he will become devotee. 

Yaśomatīnandana: Right. But he will come to Kṛṣṇa only if he comes in contact with His devotee. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Yaśomatīnandana: It appears that we came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness even though we were in a very low stage. 

Prabhupāda: That is the process. But if somebody comes to Kṛṣṇa with some material motive, he also becomes… [break] …civilization and other civilization. 

Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization. 

Prabhupāda: Civilization means advance from animal life. 

Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization. 

Prabhupāda: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking. 

Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization. 

Prabhupāda: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization. 

Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal. 

Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo. 

Prabhupāda: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. We… In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say “uncivilized.” So Āryan, Āryan means the most civilized group. 

Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Āryan race are spread the world over. 

Prabhupāda: Huh? 

Dr. Patel: Right from… Āryans are spread the world over right from South America to… 

Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Āryan family. The Europeans, they were also Āryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Āryan family. And the Americans, they also migrated from Europe. So they are also Āryans. But that is familywise. But actually Āryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Āryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him “non-Āryan.” “You are not talking like Āryan.” Anārya juṣṭam. “You are talking like non-Āryan.” [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. 

So Āryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Āryans. So that standard of Āryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani bhūtāni jayante [Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1]. To understand that. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect. 

Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Āryan civilization, cradle of Āryan civilization, near the North Pole, in somewhere in Russia. From there they started migrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. 

Prabhupāda: That’s all right. 

Dr. Patel: When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? [chuckles] We don’t say. 

Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it. 

Prabhupāda: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected. 

Dr. Patel: Hmm? 

Prabhupāda: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Āryans. They knew it. 

Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known to ancient…. 

Prabhupāda: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Āryans. They are not Āryans. 

Dr. Patel: That is Pātāla-bhūmi. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pātāla-bhūmi means just opposite the eastern hemisphere. 

Yaśomatīnandana: Just opposite the…? 

Prabhupāda: Eastern hemisphere. 

Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break] 

Yaśomatīnandana: …that Rāvaṇa’s brother, Mahirāvaṇa, was in… 

Prabhupāda: Brazil. 

Yaśomatīnandana: Brazil? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. From the description it appears. 

Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of… 

Prabhupāda: By Suranga.[?] 

Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia. 

Prabhupāda: Underground. 

Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past. 

Devotee: That’s what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way. 

Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not have go that way. [break] 

Prabhupāda: …proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] 

Dr. Patel: …really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on. 

Prabhupāda: Islam is also… 

Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism. 

Devotee: Āryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Devotee: This means all over the world there can be an Āryan culture. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is right. 

Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Āryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa. 

Prabhupāda: Today the whole world is dominated by demons. 

Dr. Patel: Today. The Āryans have become demons. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That… Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Āryan, and Āryan can become demon, by culture. That is one… 

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brāhmaṇa can be generated to Rāvaṇa state. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Āryan culture. 

yasya hi yad lakṣanaṁ
proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam
yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiṣet
[SB 7.11.35]

That who is Āryan? These are the symptoms of Āryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Āryan. That is verdict of Nārada. Yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiṣet [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brāhmaṇa, they are brāhmaṇa. This is Āryan culture. 

Dr. Patel: But they are Āryans originally. 

Prabhupāda: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin. 

Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. [laughter] 

Prabhupāda: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing. 

Dr. Patel: All the Āryans have got B blood group in majority of them. 

Prabhupāda: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than…, medical practitioner. 

Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else. 

Prabhupāda: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms… The symptom is… First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Āryan civilization. 

Dr. Patel: Ātma-niṣṭha and īśvara-niṣṭha. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal. 

Dr. Patel: Kuṇape is a dead body. Kuṇape tri-dhātuke. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding our spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-rañjanam. This is going on, loka-rañjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference. 

Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those… We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahiḥ. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhāgavata. 

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die. 

Prabhupāda: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without… Asaṅgo ‘yaṁ puruṣaḥ. “The soul has nothing to do with this material world.” 

Dr. Patel: That’s right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body? 

Prabhupāda: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless. 

Dr. Patel: It dies. 

Prabhupāda: That’s all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot… 

Dr. Patel: No, no. I don’t say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there. 

Prabhupāda: No. 

Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen… 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body. 

Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill… 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn’t require this material world. Asaṅgo ‘yaṁ puruṣaḥ. And that is self-realization. 

Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the līlā of… 

Prabhupāda: No līlā. It is compulsory. 

Dr. Patel: Why compulsory? 

Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his līlā. [laughter] 

Dr. Patel: What it is? 

Prabhupāda: It is force, that “You must be beaten with shoes.” That is not līlā. Nobody says, “Let me play this līlā and you beat me with shoes.” [laughter] No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakṛti, nature’s. You cannot say that “I don’t care for the prakṛti.Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. 

Dr. Patel: Prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. It is God’s prakṛti. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya. That he does not know. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Āryan. Like dog: he does not know that why he has got this dog’s body. He simply has learned how to bark, that’s all. 

Dr. Patel: [laughs] I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing. 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Śāstra says. You conjecture, but we don’t conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the śāstra. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. “Your eyes should be the śāstra, not conjecture.” Śāstra says, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material quality. That is our eyes. We don’t conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that “Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?” The śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya. Śāstra says; Kṛṣṇa says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that. 

Dr. Patel: Kāraṇaṁ sanga. 

Prabhupāda: Kāraṇam. Kāraṇam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can… By analysis, you can say. So therefore śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. Śāstra says, “You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there.” That is śāstra, not conjecture. You don’t diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the śāstra the symptoms are there, analytical, that “This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this.” That is śāstra, not conjecture. Kāraṇa guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that “This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature.” In the smṛti-śāstra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different pāpa. [break] 

Devotee: …culture should be designed to cure the material disease. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Āryan culture. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Āryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that’s all, jumping, very busy. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. That’s all. Immediately the verdict: “Oh, he does not know anything. He’s as good.” So? Everything is going nice? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was… He had that… Sunday—that is tomorrow—he was fixed on going to Sai Baba’s conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vṛndāvana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities, and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased, and he said, “Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba’s program and come to your program.” 

Devotee: Jaya. [laughter] 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s the governor of Karnataka? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajasthan previously. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Akṣayānanda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good. 

Mahāṁsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees’ worth of books, Prabhupāda. 

Prabhupāda: In Bangalore? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, the little one. Everyone is buying. [Prabhupāda laughs] 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get it printed in India now. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin’s theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very. 

Mahāṁsa: Also, another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart saṅkīrtana, going village to village. But it’s very austere. They were… I told them, “You go for two months, come back after two months.” But they returned in six days. [laughter] 

Prabhupāda: Why? 

Mahāṁsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble. 

Prabhupāda: Then there is no professional driver? 

Mahāṁsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success. 

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is success. People were coming. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that “After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kīrtana instead of just…” Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kīrtana together. 

Prabhupāda: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, “Go village to village, town to town.” Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s prediction, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi [CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]. 

Mahāṁsa: Grāma, yes. 

Prabhupāda: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village. 

Mahāṁsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day. 

Prabhupāda: They’ll… If they chant, they will forget it. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax. 

Prabhupāda: They want money, that’s all. 

Mahāṁsa: So they want to encourage. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now they’re bringing Prohibition. 

Mahāṁsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now. 

Prabhupāda: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. Ācchā. They put in the papers. All over India. 

Girirāja: Within five years there has to be… 

Prabhupāda: If the government simply prohibits these four things—meat-eating and drinking, gambling and illicit sex—the whole country will change, immediately. 

Mahāṁsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities. 

Prabhupāda: That is very good. 

Mahāṁsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step, and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did he reply? 

Mahāṁsa: No, he never replied. [laughter] 

Prabhupāda: This animal civilization, go-kharaḥ, is going as civilization—drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili… Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling. 

Mahāṁsa: They cannot have intoxication either. 

Devotee: Oh, yes, 

Mahāṁsa: Drinking. 

Prabhupāda: That sugar, they say that the ants, they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes. 

Mahāṁsa: Molasses. 

Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses… [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold. 

Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then. 

Prabhupāda: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: “Stop these four principles.” Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he’ll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand. 

Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of production. 

Prabhupāda: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we can return. [break] Kejiya has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson. 

Devotee (2): What is that? 

Prabhupāda: Kejiya[?] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] Yan-maithunādi gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. [laughs] Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break] 

Mahāṁsa: …now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg’s of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield; not exceptionally good, because it was our first attempt. 

Prabhupāda: So your invested money is realized? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double. 

Prabhupāda: “If we sell” means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest. 

Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam daily. So they are coming for kīrtana? 

Mahāṁsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a… 

Prabhupāda: Organize. 

Mahāṁsa: …big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits. 

Prabhupāda: Then how we are going to organize? 

Mahāṁsa: Well, Haṁsadūta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start. 

Prabhupāda: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees. 

Mahāṁsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced. 

Prabhupāda: Train them, train them. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To give a manager right way, Haṁsadūta said. 

Prabhupāda: Hmm? 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can give a manager for the farm. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage. 

Prabhupāda: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasādam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasādam? Every day there must be huge prasādam distribution. 

Mahāṁsa: Many people? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasāda distribution. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] …thing produced, that should be used as prasādam. And they will chant. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking? 

Mahāṁsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the ḍāl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and ḍāl. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That’s fine. 

Mahāṁsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers. 

Prabhupāda: Distribute rice and ḍāl and little vegetable, and they will come, take prasādam and chant. 

Mahāṁsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villages to come and stay at the farm. 

Prabhupāda: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] …food, they have begun spinning their own cloth. 

Devotee (2): Oh, yes. 

Mahāṁsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so, for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays? 

Mahāṁsa: It’s about three, four rupees a meter. 

Girirāja: For two dhotīs you’d need fifteen rupees. 

Prabhupāda: Fifty? 

Girirāja: Fifteen. 

Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Yes. 

Girirāja: For the good quality. 

Prabhupāda: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su… [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. 

Harikeśa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society? 

Prabhupāda: Banana leaf. 

Harikeśa: Cooking utensils. 

Brahmānanda: Clay cups. 

Prabhupāda: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] …temple? Huh? 

Mahāṁsa: The structure is over, Prabhupāda. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don’t know if we’ll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] …fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghoṣa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that “You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put.” So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees’ worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting. 

Prabhupāda: “Sell well.” You know he is “sell well” man. [laughter] 

Mahāṁsa: Sell a brick for the temple. [break] Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutānanda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Kṛṣṇa is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing. 

Mahāṁsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it’s an enclosed hall, so we can’t fit in more people. It’s packed up. 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It’s a lot bigger than it was three months ago? 

Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoba Bhave. 

Mahāṁsa: A businessman? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Girirāja: Bajaj. 

Prabhupāda: Bajaj, yes. [break] 

Mahāṁsa: They are quite friendly with us. There is one Pejawar Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book… There was a picture with devotees doing kīrtana in the Dharma-prakash. 

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr…. 

Mahāṁsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao. 

Prabhupāda: Doctor… What is this? 

Mahāṁsa: Rao. Nagar and Rao or something. 

Prabhupāda: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break] 

Mahāṁsa: Prabhupāda, how can we cooperate with them? 

Prabhupāda: With [indistinct]? 

Mahāṁsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect. 

Prabhupāda: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gītā, then there is cooperation. 

Mahāṁsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, but he never mentioned the name of Kṛṣṇa. 

Prabhupāda: Just see. 

Mahāṁsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that “We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them.” He wants to reject Kṛṣṇa’s authority. 

Prabhupāda: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Māyāvādīs, they know that if they accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then their Māyāvādī philosophy is finished. 

Mahāṁsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna āśrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now. He is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath. 

Prabhupāda: Oh, Ranganath, yes. 

Mahāṁsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, “What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?” So he says, “In America also there are many fools.” So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people? 

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. [laughter] That’s all. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. 

Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teachings is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people… Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that “I believe in the Bhagavad-gītā in my own way.” So I opened up Bhagavad-gītā and I showed to four people, “Look here, just see what Kṛṣṇa is saying here.” And all of them agreed. They said, “Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong.” All of them. He said that “I believe in Bhagavad-gītā in my own way,” he said. I said, “Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?” 

Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes, we all… Just two, three days back we went to see that Shankaracharya of Kamakochi[?], and the old Shankaracharya, he was very nice. He said, “Oh, you are doing very nice work,” and he liked us very much. But then the young Shankaracharya, he didn’t say anything, but he had one paṇḍita near him who started…, who first questioned us that “Do you know Sanskrit?” So… 

Prabhupāda: Why did you not, “Do you know English?” [laughter] 

Mahāṁsa: So first of all Acyutānanda… I wasn’t there, but Acyutānanda and Yaśodānandana said, “No, we don’t know much San… A little bit. We don’t…” So he quoted, “Sarva dharmān… Do you know that verse?” So they said, “Yes.” So he said, “Explain what is the meaning of that verse.” He started the whole conversation. We didn’t want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then it went on, who is Kṛṣṇa. And then finally Acyutānanda and Yaśodānandana were quoting so many ślokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every śloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said—he could not fight back—so he said, “Swāmījī, you are right,” and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our ślokas. 

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa’s mercy. 

Mahāṁsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit ślokas from so many different scriptures. 

Prabhupāda: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] 

Mahāṁsa: Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. “Oh, yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. You all do bhajan…” They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really…, they were shocked. They said, “Oh, we never knew you were doing so much.” And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kīrtana group, bhajan mandali. [break] 

Prabhupāda: What did he speak? 

Mahāṁsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. To every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is “Kṛṣṇa means ‘black.’ Black means unknown. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is unknown. Kṛṣṇa is unknown. We cannot know Kṛṣṇa.” 

Prabhupāda: And what about others’ version who knows Kṛṣṇa? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu or all the ācāryas? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. [kīrtana] [end] 

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