Room Conversation

Type:
Room Conversation
Date:
March 15
Year:
1975
Place:
Tehran

Prabhupāda: …manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. This is the position of the people. Their span of life is shortening. Nobody is living long life. And if he’s little long life, then people will commit suicide. Before coming out of India I heard one of our members, a big industrialist, he has committed suicide in Calcutta. So perhaps you know. He committed suicide in falling from the Wellington Bridge to the Ganges. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: Did you hear? 

Mrs. Patel: I think yes, I did. It came out of papers, because I read one paper. 

Prabhupāda: He was a big industrialist. This is the embarrassment. You cannot get out of this. So out of hopelessness they commit suicide. So apart from suicide, so much anxiety. You cannot live very long, from physical. This anxiety is just like fire, slow fire: burning, burning, burning, burning. So people will be short-lived, especially those who are very, very big men. Heart failure and short span of life. This is the program for killing them by māyā. So, prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ, ālpāyuṣaḥ. Prāyeṇa. Prāyeṇa means “almost.” Nobody is dying at one hundred years. No. We don’t find anyone nowadays. Of course, the limit is one hundred years. Even in this Kali-yuga, one’s span of life is limited up to one hundred years. But nobody’s going to that limit. If one lives eighty, eighty-five years, oh, he is supposed to be very grand old man. But actually one should live at least a hundred years. So that is not going on. 

Then the next qualification is mandāḥ. Mandāḥ means “bad” or “slow.” So in that way more or less every one of us, we are bad, mandāḥ. If mandāḥ means not bad, slow—that is a fact, everyone knows. Slow means that this human form of body has got some mission to execute, but nobody knows. And if anyone knows, he’s slow. He knows that death will come at any moment, that I must finish my real business. But nobody is interested. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? 

Prabhupāda: Huh? 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? 

Prabhupāda: Lazy, yes. Mandāḥ means lazy also. The real purpose of nature’s way, that evolution is coming. Now the nature gives the chance, very good form of body than other lower grade of life—human form of life. Why? God realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.1]: “Now inquire about Brahman.” Therefore the intelligence is there, the facility is there, the brain is there—but he’s not taking advantage. He’s using that brain and facility for material enjoyment. He has got better intelligence than the cats and dogs, so that he can understand what he is, what is this world, who is the creator, what is my relationship. But nobody is interested. He thinks that “I shall remain permanently as I am living now. Let me enjoy, find out,” what is called, “invent new ways of sense gratification.” The brain is used. So new ways of sense gratification. Misused. He has got a nice brain than the cats and dogs, but instead of using it to understand this “What I am? Am I this body or something else? Then why I am put into this body? If I am eternal, then why I am subjected to death?” these questions… No. No university, no education. Nothing. [indistinct] The same thing as the dog is, whole day and night, and the pig, whole day and night, searching after these bodily necessities of life—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo. And if one is little interested, he’ll go to that Ānanda-mārga. Sumanda-matayo, some bad faith. Everyone will think his path is very nice, anything you manufacture. And Vivekananda will say, “Yes, it is all right.” Yata mat tata pat. “You can manufacture your own religious way of life. That is all right.” Just last evening this gentleman was coming. So this is their Kali-yuga [indistinct], “You have got your own way, that is all right.” That gentlemen, what is his name? Movebhad? 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Movebhed. 

Prabhupāda: Movebhed. Movebhed. This is educated man. This is going on. And any damn rascal you accept. This is going on. They won’t take the standard path. “Kṛṣṇa’s instruction, that is as good as others’.” That’s all. Even all this Ānanda-mārga is also this thing. I don’t mind; it is a great bluff. 

Mrs. Patel: No, I thought of [indistinct] it, really. 

Prabhupāda: She does not know anything of the śastra, and he engages some man; whatever nonsense he speaks, that’s all right. And people will… People will… She does not speak personally. 

Mrs. Patel: No, I wouldn’t listen. 

Prabhupāda: No. Because she does not know; she is illiterate woman. 

Mrs. Patel: Because I have met her [indistinct] at some friend’s house. 

Prabhupāda: Everyone. If we say, then people will accuse us: “This man is criticizing everyone.” But I know that. I know that. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. Yes. 

Prabhupāda: All bogus humbug. Therefore I don’t make any compromise. Let you… You may come to me or not—I don’t care for it. But I cannot make any compromise with these bogus things. 

Mrs. Patel: There is no compromise to satya. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. I say my, my movement is for Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, that’s all right. If you like, then come; or go away, I don’t mind. [indistinct]… I am solid. I am solid. I have taken Kṛṣṇa. That is solid program. And whatever little success has become possible, it is due to my this faith. I never showed any jugglery, created any gold or anything like that. I say my disciples, “Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa,” that’s all. There is no jugglery. So, follow these rules and regulations, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās. Neither I have any such jugglery power, just like that Sai Baba does, some gold. People are so foolish. If little quantity of gold manufacturing, suppose he does so—he’s God. So if the gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, why shall I accept this rascal, Sai Baba? Why not accept the bigger God, who has manufactured millions and millions of gold mines? It is quite reasonable, sensible. If gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, so why this man? Why not that person who created so many gold mines? In this planet there are gold mines. And there are innumerable planets, there are many, many, many, many gold mines. So who has created? 

Mrs. Patel: Do you think that the planets, they have got human beings like us? 

Prabhupāda: Huh? More intelligent. 

Mrs. Patel: More intelligent. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devatās, demigods. 

Mrs. Patel: Well, we used to see that they used to invite gods by mantras from other planets and make some most beautiful things. For example, Viśvakarmā was invited… Lord Kṛṣṇa invited Viśvakarmā to do the… 

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In great sacrifices they used to come. 

Mrs. Patel: Come. 

Prabhupāda: Even Lord Viṣṇu used to come. 

Mrs. Patel: Nowaday I think there is a little talks about it, that we used to invite people from different planets to do some most marvelous works. Now, I think, in States and other places, they’ve started. We have told them for since so many years that people used to come from different planets. Is it possible in this age also that people come from different planets? 

Prabhupāda: Why they’ll come to the third-class man? They are not even third class; they’re tenth class. Now they’re less than śūdrās. Why they will come? And what capacity you have got to invite them? If you invite some big man, you must be also big. Why big man will come to a third class, fourth class, tenth class? How do you expect to invite? At that time Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was there. They would come by the invitation of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was so influential that people will not suffer for any kind of miserable condition. The subjects were so peaceful. That is described in the Bhāgavata. Find out, dharma-kṣetre[?]. 

[to devotee:] When I talk, these people, they have learned everything. As if it is meant for you only, my secretary. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have only, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one hope in this Kali-yuga—is by listening to you. 

Prabhupāda: And who is going to listen me? Where is Śrutakīrti? 

Devotee: I don’t know. He’s in his room. 

Prabhupāda: What he’s doing? 

Devotee (2): He’s packing. 

Prabhupāda: So whenever there is meeting, one of you must be present. Why don’t you come? 

Devotee: I was trying to pack before… 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Now packing. Anytime. I have to call you. Why? All of you should be present. Do you think you have learned everything? 

Devotee: No. 

Prabhupāda: Then why don’t you come? Everyone should stop all business and should come here. What is that? Find out this verse what I could not remember. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, about King Yudhiṣṭhira? 

Prabhupāda: Yes, King Yudhiṣṭhira. 

Devotee: The one we were reading the other day? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: [indistinct] he was suffering. 

Prabhupāda: Nādhayo vyādhayaḥ, that verse. Three kinds of… 

Nitāi: Oh. 

nādhayo vyādhayaḥ kleśā
daiva-bhūtātma-hetavaḥ
ajāta-śatrāv abhavan
jantūnāṁ rājñi karhicit
[SB 1.10.6]

“Due to the King’s having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases or excessive heat or cold.” 

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have left your country on account of mental agony. This is the result. But during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was no such thing as mental agony. Everyone felt secure: “Oh, there is our King.” That is good state. This is not state; it is a combination of all rogues, dacoits, thieves. Somehow or other they have taken power and become a government. This is the position. 

Mrs. Patel: Bhārata-varṣa is always called deva-bhūmi. 

Prabhupāda: Deva-bhūmi [Hindi]. 

Mrs. Patel: [Hindi] 

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Unless they take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they must suffer. Then there cannot be any sympathy for them. By nature’s way, daivī hi eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva… [Bg. 7.14]. Nature’s way is that… Just like the police. Police business is to punish the criminal so that he may become a faithful citizen. This is the idea. Otherwise why police gives trouble to somebody and not to others? Because it is the state force to turn the criminal citizen to become a law-abiding citizen. That is the position. Similarly, the material nature is there simply to punish these criminal living entities, godless. That is her business. Nature’s law… God’s law is so perfect. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8]. His power, energy, so perfect that everything is going on naturally, machine. She is acting just like machine. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni [Bs 5.44]. Just like this is the hand, and moving, and the shadow is also moving. 

So nature is like that. Nature is acting exactly as the Supreme Lord desires. We say, just like we go the sea beach, such a big, vast ocean, at any second it can overflood the city, the Bombay city or the Los Angeles city or the seaside. Such big, big waves. But we are walking. I teach all these things. Here is the water and here is the land. Because I know. I know that water cannot come here, although it is ten feet. But for the ocean it is not difficult. It can cover immediately hundreds of miles and overflood. It is not very difficult. And it has happened so many times. Why it is not happening? They say nature. Nature is there, but nature is acting on the order of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are blind. Just like ordinary man, they are afraid of the police. But if a gentleman knows that “If I have not killed anyone, then what I have got connection with the police?” So this is the position. God is there. His power is acting, His laws is working. He is maintaining actually millions and trillions of living entities. And it has become a fashion that “Banish God; I am leader. I can do something good for you. What is Kṛṣṇa? What is Allah? It doesn’t matter.” 

Mrs. Patel: These leaders are not even punished. For example, we heard… 

Prabhupāda: They’re punished. So many leaders punished. Oh, who is not punished? The Hitler is punished. The Napoleon Bonaparte is punished. Churchill is punished. Gandhi is punished. Who is not punished? 

Mrs. Patel: There is a story from Tibet that how they have changed the minds of children and the youngsters. There was a big hall, City Hall. First they put all the children to the Buddhist temple. And they told children, “You ask to God, ‘Please give us.’ ” They were hungry in the morning. They were not given anything. They said, go and “Pray to God. This is your God.” The children said, “Yes.” “Pray. He will give you food.” So children automatically prayed and said… 

Prabhupāda: That is Communist movement. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: They are doing that. 

Mrs. Patel: So till afternoon children were crying. But no food came. Then they took them to the hall, City Hall. And there was Mao’s photo. They said, “Now you request him.” So the children started requesting, “Please give us food. Please give us food.” Then immediately rich trays came, and children were fed. This is their tactics. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is going on. They are taking them to the church, village people, that “Pray, ‘God give us our daily bread.’ ” So the bread is not coming. Then they take to the Communist leader and ask them, and they give bread. 

Mrs. Patel: And still Communism is going on. 

Prabhupāda: No. Because foolish… People are śūdrās. They have no intelligence. We are not going to become. The Communist leader cannot turn us to become Communist. 

Mrs. Patel: India won’t be Communist? 

Prabhupāda: No. But “we” means personally I am, all my disciples, they are not going to become Communist, because they are not śūdrās. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: They can turn the śūdrās, not the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇa means he is intelligent; he knows. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: He would ask immediately, “You rascal, you have brought this bread from where? From your father’s property?” Ask. The brāhmaṇa will immediately ask. 

Mrs. Patel: Immediately ask, yes. 

Prabhupāda: “Where you got this bread? Have you manufactured in a factory?” “Yes. Bread bakery.” “So where you have got this wheat? From where?” 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: “You manufactured wheat from your factory?” This question will come from the brāhmaṇa. “Why you are claiming that you have brought this bread? God has supplied you this bread. You are as agent; you have brought.” That will be the enquiry of the brāhmaṇa. 

Mrs. Patel: Brāhmaṇa. 

Prabhupāda: And śūdrās, they do not know. They have no knowledge. They will accept, “Yes. Mao is supplying me bread.” That is the difference between śūdrā and brāhmaṇa. Therefore we are trying to make brāhmaṇas, intelligent class of men. But people are not coming. Only few coming. 

Mrs. Patel: They will come. I should say in such a short span… Although… first time I came in contact with the with this movement ISKCON, was in Boston. 

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. 

Mrs. Patel: Because I normally observe ekādaśī, that I don’t know where I kept my diary. I must have misplaced it somewhere, and ekādaśī was near. 

Prabhupāda: Which year, Boston? 

Mrs. Patel: That was in ’70. And I told one of my neighbors’ wife, I said, “Now I don’t know where to get it, because it is so difficult.” She said, “No, it’s not difficult. You go to this Hare Kṛṣṇa temple, and they will tell you.” Then I got ekādaśī date from them. And then next time we met them in Hawaii. We visited the temple. That was our last leg of the…, this visit. 

Prabhupāda: Now we have got very nice building in Hawaii. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. Then in Amsterdam, ’71, my children—I was taking them to Europe. I took them to Europe. First I took them to all yātrā-sthāna in India. Then I took them to Europe. I said, “Now you can understand what the difference is. And you can be proud of your country.” So in Amsterdam we found some people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we went there. We went to the… It was just a new, starting temple in ’71. And then we requested them, we said, “We are vegetarians. We are suffering so badly. We would have been better off if you have some prasādam there.” Then, of course, whenever I go to London, I visit the temple. 

Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa has already come by His holy name, incarnated. We have to take advantage. Then everything will be all right. Nature’s law is, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [ŚU 6.8]. Law is so perfect that everything is being done as if automatically, svābhāvikī. And it is being done automatically, but there is superintendent. If you infect some particular type of disease, nature’s way is that you must develop that disease. The law is already there. It is not that nature will have to take care of it: “Oh, you have…” Just like police state, he has to. But automatically punished. Police law is not so perfect. 

Mrs. Patel: There is bribery there. 

Prabhupāda: If I steal, you have to arrest me, and then so many other things. If I bribe, then I can get excused. It is not perfect; it is man-made. But God-made law so perfect, if you have infected, you must suffer, automatically. Automatically the punishment will be. That is called svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. So they do not study these laws. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ‘sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. Everything is there. Therefore we are trying to train our people to associate with goodness—not passion, not ignorance. There are three guṇas. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. If you keep yourself in goodness, then you’ll be promoted in higher planetary system. Or still higher—mad-yājino ‘pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. “Anyone who is fully engaged in My devotional service, they will come to Me.” The nature’s law is there. You do it, you get the result. That’s all. This is nature’s law. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti… [Bg. 4.9]. If you simply remain in business to understand Kṛṣṇa, that’s all. Therefore we are presenting so many books. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with Bhagavad-gītā. The Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me ca divyaṁ: “These are all divine, transcendental.” Yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Anyone who knows that in truth, what is the result? The result is automatic. What is that? Tyaktvā dehaṁ. “When this body is given up,” mām eti: “He comes to Me.” Everything is automatic. Now they are manufacturing so many things, automatic machine. Just like in the airport, when you step in, the door is open, automatically. And they are declaring, “Wonderful thing happening.” And where is this automatic—that you infect some disease, immediately suffer? Is it not automatic? Is it not better than the opening door? [laughter] 

But who is studying these things? But there are. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. The king was so pious that things happened during his time, that there is no mental anxiety of the citizens. Naturally. If we know that “Our king is so nice and he’s giving us so nice facilities, let us sleep peacefully,” naturally you have no anxiety of mind. So you said that you could not sleep even. At any moment, under the pretext of law, the government men come and take all whatever I have earned through hard labor. This is the position. Then one anxiety enters in your mind, the other anxiety will come automatically, one after another. [to devotee:] Read that. 

Nitāi: “Due to the King’s having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases, or excessive heat and cold.” 

Prabhupāda: Not even excessive heat and cold. 

Mrs. Patel: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: This is also suffering. Just see. By possessing one good king, you’ll have freedom from all these anxieties. This is Vedic civilization: to train up the king first class, then everything will be all right. Not these some third-class, fourth-class men, by hook and crook gets vote and come into the government ruling. Their business is how to get money, that’s all. 

Mrs. Patel: [Hindi] 

Prabhupāda: They think, “I have got this post for few years. Let me earn some money by hook and crook.” So in any condition of life I have got. Read it. 

Nitāi: [reading purport] “To be nonviolent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of the poor animals is Satan’s philosophy.” 

Prabhupāda: This is also another important point. People are engaged in killing the poor animals all over the world—big, big, slaughterhouse. So where the sinful activities will go on, they must suffer. Human beings, civilized, they are engaged in the most uncivilized way of life. In the jungle they used to kill some animals because they have no other idea to…, how to eat. But now you are civilized man, you can produce so many things by your simply little labor. Why should you kill animals? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. “Now you are civilized, produce food grains, both the animals and the man, and be satisfied.” Who is going there? No. Especially in the Western world: “Oh, why take so much trouble? Bring one animal, kill and eat.” That’s all. This is going on. Because you have to… It is not very good, hard labor. If the society takes three months’ labor, he can produce one year’s food, or more than that. That is experienced. All the cultivators, they do that. So if by three months’ working I can get my…, the food grains, foodstuff, for the whole year, why shall I kill daily ten thousands of poor animals, thinking that there is no sin, I’ll not be punished, there is no God? This is going on. They’re killing their own child. Now they will kill their child and eat, because there will be nothing available. That time is coming. Because they’re violating the laws of God, time will come, they will have to kill their own children and eat. Where they will get animal? The animal stock will be finished. Then their children stock will be taken. This is already started. Mercy killing—what is that? 

Mrs. Patel: Mercy killing. 

Prabhupāda: So we should be prepared for all these sufferings. That is coming, one after another. Svābhāvikī. It will come automatically. If you do this, [indistinct] “Come on.” You think yourself free, all right; but it will come. If somebody says, “No, no. I am not going to be old man. I shall remain young man,” “No, sir, it will be forced upon you.” If somebody says, “No, I am not going to die,” it will be forced upon you. Why don’t you think, “Who is forcing?” Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to become old man. Nobody wants to be diseased. Why these things are coming by force? Still they are so fools, they do not understand who is forcing, who is the agent, or who is the person. Confident: “Now I shall live like this. Now I am American, or Indian, my life is secure.” 

dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv
ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
[SB 2.1.4]

There in Mexico City I saw they were making good, big body. He’s thinking, “If I build my body very strong and stout, then death will not come.” He’s thinking like that. Deha. Then apatya. Old man is thinking, “I have got so many nice, good children. They’re earning. They’re making business nicely. So I am secure.” Dehapatya-kalatra, wife. “Oh, I have got good wife, so faithful wife. So I am secure.” Dehapatya-kalatra adi. This is the beginning of their self-sufficient. “Oh, I have got money, I have got good wife, I have got nice children, I have got good nation, good government. Therefore I have nothing to do with God. Let this poor man cry ‘Hare Kṛṣṇa.’ I have nothing to do.” 

So therefore the next line says, pramattaḥ: “He’s a madman. Here is a madman.” Pramatta tasya nidhanaṁ. He knows that “All this paraphernalia I have created, they will be all finished.” Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. He knows that; still he’ll not see it. The real fact, he knows that, but still he’ll not see it. He’ll think, “I am secure.” This is materialistic mentality. Paśyann api na paśyati. Although he knows, he sees, that a thief, a criminal, he knows that he’ll be punished, he’ll be arrested—and still he’s stealing. This is going on of the whole world. He has seen others suffering. He knows that this is the law, but still he’s stealing. [Hindi] 

Mrs. Patel: [Hindi] 

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. 

Mrs. Patel: [Hindi] 

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Hare Kṛṣṇa. 

dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv
ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
[SB 2.1.4]

Everyone is confident, “Now I am married, my position is secure. I have got so much money. I have got so many friends. I have got so much influence. I have got good wife, good children, nice bank balance, good position. Why shall I go to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am secure.” This is going on. Everyone is thinking that he is perfect. This ignorance. “I can violate all the laws. I can violate the rules and regulations. I don’t care for anyone.” Therefore they are described as mūḍhā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. Nobody cares how nature’s law is acting, how it is going on. Nobody cares. The threefold miseries are there. If I become a little neglectful, immediately I’ll catch cold. The miserable condition, cold and heat, is going on. So there are rules and regulations; I have to take care. And if you don’t take care, immediately you become attacked with pneumonia, bronchitis, this and that. We’re seeing it. Nature’s law is so perfect. Little negligence. If you eat little more, then there is indigestion. You cannot violate nature’s law. If you violate, then you must suffer. 

Devotee: In Kali-yuga… 

Prabhupāda: Huh? 

Devotee: In Kali-yuga people think suffering is enjoyable. They glorify it. 

Prabhupāda: Unless he thinks like that, how he’ll suffer? He has to suffer. That is the law of nature. And if he’s not insane, then how he’ll suffer? Just like the hippies—they suffer, and they take it as enjoyment. But by nature’s law, he has to suffer. And if he does not take in that way—“It is enjoyment”—how he’ll suffer? That is nature’s mercy, that this man has to suffer, and if he does not become insane, how he’ll suffer? He is punished. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is part of nature’s arrangement… 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Ātreya Ṛṣi: …for him to suffer. 

Prabhupāda: Suffer. And He gives this facility, that “You suffer, and you take it as pleasure.” That is nature’s arrangement. That is nature’s mercy. Just like we forget all our past life. If I do not forget… Suppose I was very big man, but again I have become ordinary man, just like Bharata Mahārāja, you know. That is possible. So how you can stay? He will become mad. There are instances when Indra became a pig, and he forgot. When Brahmā came to take him again to the…, “Oh, my dear pig, you were Indra. Now you have suffered, and you come with me. You come to your place, to your kingdom.” “What is that? I was Indra? I don’t mind. [laughter] I cannot go leaving my family, these pigs, so many.” [laughter] So these are there. So Brahmā purposefully killed him and then take him. He would not agree. Even the pig will not agree, that “Come on to the heavenly kingdom. You were the king.” “No, no, I don’t like to go. This is very nice place, with stool and dirty water and these pigs. It is very nice life.” This is māyā. This is māyā. Everyone will think, “I am very well situated. I am very happy. Why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?” That is the pleasure. Your question? What was the question? 

Devotee: I was just saying how people take this suffering and they glorify it. All the writers, the big poets and the writers. 

Prabhupāda: Because this is the same māyā, illusion. Therefore it is called illusion. Māyā means “what is not.” That is māyā. They do not know. Just see. Nowadays the hippies, they are lying down on the street. There is no, I mean to say, surety where they will get food, and they don’t take bath even… [break] [end]