May 27, 1974, Rome

Prabhupāda: So we can discuss some of the problems, about the problems. Discuss what are the problems. 

Bhagavān: Now? We shall discuss now? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussions how we are going to solve. 

Bhagavān: The biggest problem now is that they have built up a type of society in which their needs are all coming from petrol energy. To produce what they need today is all coming from this petrol energy… 

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. 

Bhagavān: …which is…, which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the Western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don’t have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually, the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation. 

Prabhupāda: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport; you don’t require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindaban we stay, we don’t go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol? 

Bhagavān: Petrol they also use for heating and electricity. 

Prabhupāda: No, heating…, heating we can do by wood, by nature. 

Dhanañjaya: I remember, [indistinct] Prabhupāda, you were saying that all you require is some oxen, and the oxen can carry. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. The oxen will problem…, will solve the problem of transport. That bullock cart. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was transferred from Gokula to Nandagrāma, so they took all the bullock carts, and within a few hours they transported them, the whole thing, their luggage, family member, everything. 

Bhagavān: How far can a bullock cart travel in one day? 

Prabhupāda: At least ten miles, very easily, very easily. And maximum he can travel fifteen miles, twenty miles. But when we are localized, we don’t require to go beyond ten miles, five miles. Because we have created a rubbish civilization, therefore one is required to go fifty miles for earning bread, hundred miles, hanging. 

Dhanañjaya: Like in Los Angeles. 

Prabhupāda: Why Los Angeles? Everywhere. In New York they are coming from hundred miles, from the other side of the island. First ferry steamer, then bus, then so on, so on. Three hours, four hours they spend for transport. 

Satsvarūpa: Is this an ideal solution or a practical one? 

Prabhupāda: This is practical. 

Satsvarūpa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the… 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our Society will be ideal by practical application. 

Satsvarūpa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great… 

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. “If you like, you live like us.” 

Bhagavān: Example. 

Prabhupāda: Example. 

Satsvarūpa: Not that we’re going to dictate to the… Not that we are going to force everyone. 

Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to force anyone. 

Bhagavān: We just show. 

Prabhupāda: “Our mode of living is like this. If you like, you can adopt.” Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that “You also, you must chant.” No. We live like this. 

Dhanañjaya: So in fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should start using bullock carts. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindaban. Make this perfect. 

Devotee: Was a meeting of scientists in Sweden, Stockholm. 

Bhagavān: Let’s discuss this problem. 

Devotee: Was a big meeting of scientists in Stockholm, Sweden, and they talked that if the humanity don’t begin to live in a localized way like you say, in fifty years will be no more source of production. 

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. We can produce from anywhere foodstuff. 

Bhagavān: What about the question of using petrol for heat? Another import… There is three uses of petrol, well four. One is the transportation, one is heat, another is electricity, and a fourth is they use it to manufacture so many products. So what if someone asks… 

Prabhupāda: No, you go on products, with your product. You have created problem; you go on with your problem. But we live like this. If you like, you can adopt. 

Bhagavān: What is our solution to heat? Wood? 

Prabhupāda: Heat? Yes, wood. Sufficient. 

Dhanañjaya: But they are saying they used all the wood for paper, so there’s no more wood. 

Prabhupāda: No, no. Paper you can make from grass, from cotton, so many other fibers. You don’t require wood. You grow grass, sufficient quantity, and you make paper. Why should you publish so many rubbish literatures? Just like you were telling the, Times of India, the newspaper… [sound of cars passing close by] This is the difficulty, walking on the street. Therefore I wanted to go to the park. This is disturbance. 

Bhagavān: [aside:] Prabhupāda likes the park better [indistinct]. 

Prabhupāda: So paper, if we don’t produce unnecessary paper, there is no scarcity. From grass. You produce grass, huge quantity of grass, you will get paper. Cotton. 

Bhagavān: Cotton? 

Prabhupāda: Cotton also. First-class paper. In India also, the rejected paper… From rejected paper you can get another paper also. But they throw it away in your country. Collect this rejected paper and again put it into paper. And why should you publish all rubbish literature? Simply publish Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, that’s all. What is the use of this newspaper, nonsense newspaper, huge, huge quantity? So everything will be nice, provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food. Even you can produce your own paper. You don’t require printing of so many books. If there is one book, others can imitate, or copy. There is no need of printing. Formerly they used to do that. Here is the… 

Bhagavān: [a lot of noise from cars] Would you like to go in the park? Do you want us to bring the car? 

Prabhupāda: Now? 

Bhagavān: I didn’t understand that, Prabhupāda, about one book. 

Prabhupāda: One book… Suppose we have prepared some small quantity of paper. So you can, if you want that book, you just copy another book. 

Bhagavān: By hand. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no need of printing books. 

Bhagavān: Some people would be engaged in copying books. 

Prabhupāda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy, that’s all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kṛṣṇa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kṛṣṇa; therefore they go to the dog’s pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That’s all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it. 

Bhagavān: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago… You know that Dr. Ghosh? 

Bhagavān: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom—he is Englishman—that “In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease.” So Dr. Ghosh, as a student, “Oh, it is horrible.” So he replied, “Why do you say ‘horrible’? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that.” That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent percent must be. 

Yogeśvara: There was a report in the New York Times that last year alone in the United States there were over 300,000 abortions, and more than two-thirds were performed on girls under twenty years of age. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that “I am this body.” This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, “I am a big dog here. Don’t come.” Similarly, if a man thinks, “I am a big American,” “I am big Englishman,” then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization, “No, you are neither dog nor human being. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am spirit soul.” This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that “I do not belong to this any material condition. I am Brahman, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.” Where is that conception? 

Bhagavān: Now they have… The other day in the paper that India exploded its first nuclear bomb. 

Prabhupāda: Eh? 

Bhagavān: That India exploded its first atomic bomb. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great. [laughs] 

Yogeśvara: Now it’s in the top six. 

Prabhupāda: But there is no food. Never mind you starve, but get your atom bomb. That’s all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, “Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television.” This is their program: “From next week you will have television.” Just see. As if television will minimize my hunger, appetite. This is the civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol. 

Bhagavān: You say in the…, I think it’s in the Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, we can think like that. Just like the plane, aeroplane, is flying. There is sufficient petrol stock. Is it not? So the world has got sufficient petrol stock. If you do not know how it is being used, maybe due to this petrol it is floating. And if you take away the petrol stock, it may drop. Everything is there. There is a purpose. Pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. There is full purpose. Not that whimsically petrol is there within the earth. There is some purpose. 

Devotee: What they do, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is take the petrol out and put salt water, because they know there can be a disbalance. And then they put salt water in the holes. 

Prabhupāda: But water cannot produce gas. Petrol produces gas. Maybe due to that gas it is floating. Because we have got practical experience, when there is gas, you can float anything. 

Dhanañjaya: Like a balloon. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: There is another big problem that now all the opposing countries have built up excess amounts of atomic weapons all pointed at each other. So now they are trying to have big planning conference how to diminish all these weapons. 

Prabhupāda: Ah. If there is no opposite element, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]: “As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become jubilant.” So where is your enemy? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days, so many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any [indistinct], very quickly this communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight like cats and dogs. “Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood.” So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is, “You are come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest.” Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam: “Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest.” And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept there. [loud truck noise] 

Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, this isn’t a place for walking. [break] 

Yogeśvara: …all the major nations of the world have… These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things. 

Prabhupāda: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me; you go to hell, I go to hell. That’s all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. [laughs] 

Bhagavān: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bomb can be used in Kṛṣṇa’s service. 

Prabhupāda: It will be used by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. He is thinking that “I am proprietor of this atomic bomb,” but he does not know that “The other’s atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him.” That’s all. He does not know that. He is thinking, “I am very proud of possessing.” But that will be the cause of his death. 

Yogeśvara: Is such an atomic war foretold in Bhāgavatam? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Next war means atomic war. All these rascals will be killed automatically. I will kill you, you’ll kill me. That’s all. 

Yogeśvara: Is that war to occur in the recent future? Or is that a long way off? 

Prabhupāda: Very recent. Very recent future. This Communist and capitalist mentality will bring the next… The Communists will be victorious. 

Dhanañjaya: And after the war, what will be the result? 

Prabhupāda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem… Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kṛṣṇa the leader, then the communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God, the supreme dictator, then everything is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self-dependent, no use… And we don’t require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere. 

Bhagavān: We can make our own cloth? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: Khādi. 

Prabhupāda: Cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth. 

Dhanañjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth—without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this situation. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil’s workshop. 

Bhagavān: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becoming… 

Prabhupāda: Anyone who hasn’t got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple? 

Dhanañjaya: This is Mary, the… 

Yogeśvara: The Virgin Mary. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this. 

Yogeśvara: Mahatma Gandhi formulated many such programs for producing khādi, for cow protection and so on. 

Prabhupāda: No, he did not make any cow protection. 

Yogeśvara: No? We know from your teachings that he was missing the point. 

Prabhupāda: Missing… The point is God. He was atheist. He did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. 

Yogeśvara: But from the level of application of his programs, is there some value? 

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man. 

Yogeśvara: All Indians worship Gandhi. 

Prabhupāda: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. [laugh] Otherwise, how was he killed? 

Yogeśvara: Every place we go, we see Indians’ homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables. 

Prabhupāda: You, you have not visited everyone’s house here. The three, four house you have visited, that’s all. 

Bhagavān: You haven’t even been to India. [laughter] 

Prabhupāda: Don’t talk all this nonsense. 

Bhagavān: We can keep horses? We can use horses? 

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality. 

Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be… They should not possess, so that they will work always. 

Yogeśvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted. 

Prabhupāda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited? 

Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that “Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food,” then they revolted. 

Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and we are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now… Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily. 

Bhagavān: They like to work. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: It’s not that people like to be idle. 

Prabhupāda: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service, because they are assured of their family protection, medicine, food, education. So they did not like… Never mind it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen. 

Yogeśvara: Because there are good benefits. 

Prabhupāda: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system. 

Yogeśvara: Yeah, that’s the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful, because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat. They wouldn’t have enough protection. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists… Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow, you cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept it. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else? 

Bhagavān: That’s not good? 

Prabhupāda: That’s not good. 

Bhagavān: So in our community, when we grow things, or we have need of someone’s services, how are these services distributed equally? Let’s say we grow cauliflower, we grow peas, we grow wheat. Each family… Is it that each family must be responsible and take only what he needs? How is it distributed? 

Prabhupāda: No, no. These varieties… Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetable. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties, if you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled. We have got some desire of different quality of varieties. That you can make. From milk, vegetable, grains, the three things, you can make three hundred varieties. 

Bhagavān: But my question is, if the community produces… Some class of men produce vegetables and grains, some class produce cows, some class produce clothes, some class produce necessities for building. How are these things distributed equally? 

Prabhupāda: Because we are community, we shall distribute whatever necessity for everyone. 

Bhagavān: They will come and say, “I need this much cloth, I need this much milk.” 

Prabhupāda: No, this much cloth… But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will be satisfied with the minimum necessities of life. That is natural. You won’t demand. 

Yogeśvara: So actually such a program can only be successful proportionately with the rise of Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main basic principle. Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful. 

Yogeśvara: They won’t be satisfied. 

Prabhupāda: No. 

Bhagavān: The kṣatriyas make sure that people are correct? 

Prabhupāda: Eh? 

Bhagavān: The kṣatriyas make sure that people are acting correctly, that no one is taking more than what they need? 

Prabhupāda: Naturally he will do. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, if he attends the Kṛṣṇa conscious program, naturally he will do. Svāmin kṛtārtho ‘smi [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. That is the progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will be satisfied in any condition of life. That is progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He doesn’t require anything artificially. His main necessity is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if his attention is diverted in that way, these things will be not important. 

Yogeśvara: So then we should begin our communities, our rural communities like New Vrindaban, and then by training up people in the cities, we can send them gradually, as thay are ready… 

Prabhupāda: There will be no city. We don’t want cities. 

Bhagavān: What about our city temples? 

Prabhupāda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. City means… For the present we have got. Because the city is there, we are there. But suppose the city is closed. We shall be there? If the city is closed, you still will be there? 

Yogeśvara: No. But we can predict that the cities will go on for quite some time yet. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 2.59]. When one gets a better standard of life, naturally he will give up the lower standard of life. 

Dhanañjaya: But won’t the countryside be spoiled if there is an atomic war? 

Prabhupāda: Eh? 

Dhanañjaya: But won’t the countryside be spoiled, become contaminated, if there is an atomic war? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. The… What is called? 

Bhagavān: Fallout? The atomic bomb? 

Dhanañjaya: Radioactivity. 

Prabhupāda: By atomic bomb… What is that? The… He says in your country that you divide the city. I just forget. 

Yogeśvara: The result of the bomb? 

Prabhupāda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village. 

Bhagavān: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities, where the industry is. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. 

Yogeśvara: The targets will be the cities. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used for the villagers. Downtown, downtown. [laughter] 

Bhagavān: The bombs will be throw downtown. 

Prabhupāda: The downtown will be first finished. [laughter] I have got experience during the last war, the bombs were being thrown in Calcutta, and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown. 

Bhagavān: They know they don’t want to bomb the countryside, or else how can they live? 

Prabhupāda: Eh? 

Bhagavān: If they bomb the countryside, how can they live? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: The overpopulation is in the city. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Bhagavān: They think that overpopulation occurs in underdeveloped countries, but actually in every city it is overpopulation, people living on top of each other like rats. 

Prabhupāda: [loud train noises] These are subway trains? 

Dhanañjaya: No, these are ordinary trains. 

Prabhupāda: So all your problems solved? 

Bhagavān: No, not yet. 

Prabhupāda: Put problems. I’ll solve. 

Yogeśvara: So here’s a problem: The women today want the same rights as men. How can they be satisfied? 

Prabhupāda: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are working. They don’t want equal rights with the men. It is due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking very nicely. They are satisfied. They never said that “I have to go to Japan for preaching like Prabhupāda.” They never say. This is artificial. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women, men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no artificial [indistinct]. [loud traffic noises] 

Bhagavān: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but… 

Prabhupāda: [train noise] This is subway? No. 

Dhanañjaya: This is also public transport, other trains. 

Bhagavān: But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can’t cook, they can’t clean, they can’t sew. 

Prabhupāda: All rubbish. These modern girls, they are all rubbish. Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless… 

Bhagavān: Have to train them. 

Prabhupāda: No, no women [indistinct]…[end] 

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