Morning Walk — April 20, 1974, Hyderabad

Pañcadraviḍa: …going back to the temple. 

Prabhupāda: …meeting, our Life Members are not coming? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes, it is, meeting. Many Life Members came, Prabhupāda. There were many cows also. [break] 

Prabhupāda: No mangoes are hanging. [break] “Kṛṣṇa is everything” is little difficult for everyone, eh? They want hodgepodge—“Everything is all right.” So has anybody offered some lump sum for the construction? 

Mahāṁsa: Not as yet, Prabhupāda. Actually, they are all waiting for Mr. Pithi to make his pledge. They have some kind of… These Marwaris… [break] 

Prabhupāda: I did not see Hari Prasad. 

Mahāṁsa: He was there. 

Prabhupāda: He was there? 

Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes. His whole family was there. Mr. Pulla Reddy was there. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, Pulla Reddy I have seen. [break] He is so much convinced with our philosophy in Bombay, he is going to take sannyāsa. 

Mahāṁsa: Oh, nice. In Hare Kṛṣṇa Land? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Although he is officially Shaivite, but he says that “I am so much convinced with your speech.” 

Pañcadraviḍa: Who is that person, Śrīla Prabhupāda? 

Prabhupāda: I do not remember the name. 

Nitāi: He lives in that same building? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Downstairs. 

Nitāi: Oh. He comes to every one of your lectures. 

Mahāṁsa: I will just tell him that we do not need the car. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] …between nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. 

Pañcadraviḍa: The nitya-mukta devotees, Prabhupāda, they are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and every thought of theirs is engaged at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, of serving Him completely. And when they appear on this earth, persons like yourself, they only come here for the purpose of reclaiming the fallen conditioned souls. They have no reason to come to this material world for their own enjoyment. That is never on their mind. But the nitya-bandhas, they are here simply to try and manipulate this material nature so that they can engage their own senses in gratification either of themselves or their extended self, like their family. So the difference between the two is one is serving Kṛṣṇa, the other is simply serving his senses. 

Prabhupāda: Is that all right? 

Satsvarūpa: Eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. 

Prabhupāda: Eternally liberated, they never forget Kṛṣṇa. There is no period throughout the existence… There is no question of existence. It is their all existence. Never touched by māyā, forgetfulness. That is nitya-mukta. [japa] [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were talking that a person, he can come up to that position of nitya-mukta by either following the principles of sādhana-bhakti or causeless mercy, or you said there was also the question of kṛpā, the kṛpā-siddhi, that one can attain perfection… 

Prabhupāda: No, that is sādhana-bhakti. 

Pañcadraviḍa: One gets mercy by sādhana-bhakti. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the stage of sādhana-bhakti… Sadhana-bhakti is for the conditioned soul. And siddha. Siddha means they are already mature. Siddha means nitya-siddha. [japa] [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: Also, Prabhupāda, you said that if one does not worship Pañca-tattva, whatever actions he performs, even if he is so-called kṛṣṇa-bhakta, is to be considered offensive. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Does this mean other sampradāyas also? 

Prabhupāda: Other sampradāyas? 

Pañcadraviḍa: For instance, Rāmānuja-sampradāya or also Madhva-sampradāya, they sometimes don’t accept Pañca-tattva as being supreme. So is their actions also considered offensive, even if they are acting within sampradāya? 

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. [break] 

Mahāṁsa: …Rāmānuja-sampradāya, do they have a chain of disciplic succession, bona fide chain, to this present day? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Mahāṁsa: And the other sampradāyas also? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chain must be there. Now, whether strictly following the…, that is another thing. [japa] [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: …invited us to their program at Udupi, Madhva-sampradāya. When they are changing the ācāryas every two years, they extended one invitation to come for their program, main temple program. 

Prabhupāda: So why did you not accept? 

Pañcadraviḍa: There was no transportation available. 

Prabhupāda: Transportation? 

Mahāṁsa: Should we go to such programs, Prabhupāda? 

Prabhupāda: If they invite, why not? That means they recognize. But one thing, you be certain whether this Tirupati temple is going to allow our men. 

Mahāṁsa: I will send somebody tomorrow in advance to make preparations. 

Prabhupāda: Where? 

Mahāṁsa: To Tirupati. Actually, Gurukṛpa and Yaśodānandana, they’ve had darśana of Lord Bālajī. 

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then it is all right. They had no difficulty. 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And also Maṇibandha had once been, last time in the Hyderabad program was… 

Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. 

Pañcadraviḍa: They gave Gurukṛpa and Yaśodānandana special darśana. They took them into the circle where usually they’d only let special people… 

Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then that’s all right. [japa] [break] 

Mahāṁsa: …very impressed because we have nāgara-kīrtana all over the place. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Mahāṁsa: And if they are impressed, they can…, when our construction starts, they will be very willing to also give a very huge donation. They are capable of… 

Prabhupāda: How many people are going altogether? 

Mahāṁsa: About fifteen devotees. 

Prabhupāda: That’s nice. So we have to go by plane? 

Mahāṁsa: No, we will go by bus. 

Prabhupāda: Oh. Bus is going every day? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes, there is two very special buses. It costs forty-two rupees per ticket to go there. [break] 

Prabhupāda: …wood is the strongest of all wood, this. [taps wood with cane] Very strong. 

Pañcadraviḍa: What kind of wood is that? 

Prabhupāda: It is guava tree. 

Mahāṁsa: Guava, oh. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know what is that lattu, we used to play? What is the English? 

Mahāṁsa: Spinning? 

Prabhupāda: Like a small, and we used to… 

Mahāṁsa: Oh, top, a top. Like that. It’s top. 

Prabhupāda: Top. What is called, top? 

Mahāṁsa: That is made of this, Prabhupāda? Oh. [laughs] 

Prabhupāda: Very strong. 

Mahāṁsa: [to devotees] You know the tops? They have? In America they have them? [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: …tops to gamble. That’s part of the… 

Prabhupāda: Gambling religion. Now here also they are advertising gambling, this government. Deteriorating. The whole world is deteriorating and suffering. Suffering is increasing. Still they are so rascal, they cannot understand that what is the advancement. They have become so less intelligent. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Usually, though, it is the children. They gamble for cookies and candy and things like this. 

Prabhupāda: No, children, they learn it from their parents. Otherwise they do not know. [japa] [break] …by memory, by mercifulness… People are not so merciful now. Suppose in your presence somebody is being killed. You avoid to stand there. No more merciful. What to speak of the animals? If a man is killed, nobody will take care. I have heard it in America that if somebody is killed or attacked, nobody will go to help. Is it not? 

Mahāṁsa: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: So the mercifulness has gone. And what to speak of religiosity? That is completely gone. These things will reduce: mercifulness, religiosity, memory, bodily strength, and so many. Eight, eight, they are mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Religious principles. [japa

Pañcadraviḍa: And you were writing that it is just a little bit of truthfulness is left. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. [japa] You secure dhātun from the tree. Ask them. The two dhātun they gave, that is finished. [break] …water is full, one can take bath. 

Mahāṁsa: Swimming. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: …that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the śāstras of the [sic:] yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic śāstras. They are not as… They are not bona fide like that. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Does this mean they are not authentic, or… How did they come here? 

Prabhupāda: Who? 

Pañcadraviḍa: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what? 

Prabhupāda: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that’s all. They are not eternally… Just like in the Bible it is said, “Thou shall not kill.” [chuckles] But this is not…, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, “No, don’t do this. Thou shall not covet,” a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, “There is God, kingdom of God,” little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, “Thou shall not kill,” is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God? 

Pañcadraviḍa: These things, they are also in [sic:] Manu-saṁhiti? 

Prabhupāda: That is for… Manu-saṁhitā forbids completely. Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. That is natural. [break] “…shall not kill,” this is expectation: “Someday, in future, one may become religious,” that’s all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukṛti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few, because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion, killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated—again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yeṣam anta-gataṁ pāpam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gītā, yes. 

Pañcadraviḍa: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life. 

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. 

yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
[Bg. 7.28]

To stick to Kṛṣṇa bhajana is not so easy, that you will go on committing all sinful activities and you will become Kṛṣṇa devotee. That is not possible. You have to give up, and you have to come. But this is the process. You will be free, and you will understand. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. If one follows bona fide guru’s instruction, and he is engaged in devotional service, then it is possible. Then it is possible. Otherwise, if he does whimsically, then it will be a failure. He must carry out the instruction of the guru, bona fide guru. Guru means bona fide guru, not pseudo guru. And according… What guru will advise? To be engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service. These two things will help him. Otherwise it is not possible. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya: “By the mercy of guru and by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa.” So both of them should be served. That is the process. Not that “Now I have become advanced devotee, I don’t require to serve guru.” Neither, “Oh, I am serving my guru. I don’t care for Kṛṣṇa.” No. Parallel line. Not that “One line I can walk.” No. Parallel line. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore in our temple, along with Deities, guru is also worshiped. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ, if one accepts guru—“Guru is guru. Guru is guru”—as ordinary human being, then that is offense, nārakī buddhi. 

Mahāṁsa: That kind of worship is eternal. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei. [japa

Pañcadraviḍa: Where is that śloka you were quoting last night from, that ending “gokala.” 

Prabhupāda: Go-kharaḥ, go-kharaḥ. That is in Bhāgavata. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. [aside:] You give him that śloka, [indistinct]. So actually, at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharaḥ, that’s all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms, “I am this body,” that’s all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharaḥs, animals. [break] …because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not? 

Pañcadraviḍa: When the soul enters… When the soul is entering, they are all complete? 

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep… A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are… If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, “Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency; therefore the life is not coming.” No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist. You prepare. “No, in future we shall see.” And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; still they will insist, “Yes.” 

And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God’s two energies are working, that like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy… Just like in the motorcar, before starting you round the key, and it becomes “gut, gut, gut, gut.” Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, “Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am.” Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don’t you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God’s sanction, you cannot do that. This is a reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there—Kṛṣṇa says—therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Kṛṣṇa, with dvi-bhuja muralī, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered? 

Devotee: I will bring it today. Before lunch. 

Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, this bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don’t find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, or technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, “Now we have got everything.” On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra’s work, that’s all. That does not mean because he has got money he has got all knowledge. But people accept, “Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge.” That’s all. And if you go, if you speak about God, “Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession.” That’s all. 

So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13], they will suffer, because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section… Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there, so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, postgraduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil. They will indulge in this meat-eating and wine, drinking wine, and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn, or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The Negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our [name withheld] was… [break] …Park. [Name withheld] our. Yes, she said. 

Mahāṁsa: She said? 

Prabhupāda: No, no, she said. She was captured by a group of Negroes to rape her. [break] That girl, what is his [her] name? [name withheld] wife? 

Satsvarūpa: [Name withheld]. 

Prabhupāda: She was raped. 

Satsvarūpa: [Name withheld]. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. She was raped. [japa

Pañcadraviḍa: How do you teach a varṇāśrama college? In varṇāśrama college, if somebody comes in, they say, “I want to be kṣatriya” or “I want to be vaiśya,” is it like that? 

Prabhupāda: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Who will teach him to be a kṣatriya or who will teach him to be a vaiśya? 

Prabhupāda: A kṣatriya, a brāhmaṇa. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician. 

Pañcadraviḍa: So where will we get kṣatriyas and…? 

Prabhupāda: That is in the śāstra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is kṣatriya. 

Pañcadraviḍa: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men…? 

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Because he knows how to teach. That’s all. 

Pañcadraviḍa: The brāhmaṇas, they all become devotee… They would all be engaged in devotional life as… 

Prabhupāda: This is also devotion, to teach a kṣatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion. 

Pañcadraviḍa: And vaiśyas? 

Prabhupāda: Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons. Not that simply by chanting, you supply… Just like Bhīṣmadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow, the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. Just like the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is it not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to… [chuckles] But if a rascal thinks that “Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always,” then he is a rascal. [japa] [laughter] [break] …lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, “No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor,” so is… That conclusion is very nice? 

Mahāṁsa: No. 

Prabhupāda: So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Kṛṣṇa. He knows. [japa

Nitāi: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman. 

Prabhupāda: Clergyman? 

Nitāi: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman. 

Prabhupāda: Where he was? 

Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory. 

Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra. 

Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer? 

Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also. 

Nitāi: He can remain in the factory. But simply we would… 

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me; I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa. No. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. 

Nitāi: So in that case, he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a… 

Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, “Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava,” that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required. 

Mahāṁsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Kṛṣṇa. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Mahāṁsa: He is a devotee. He is not a śūdra making garlands. 

Prabhupāda: No. He is not a ordinary gardener. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges. 

Prabhupāda: Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to direction, he is Vaiṣṇava. He is above all these. 

Pañcadraviḍa: A śūdra, if he is working, he cannot take brāhmaṇa initiation, but he can take hari-nāma, is that it? 

Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a mehtar? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a mehtar, or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brāhmaṇa, as śūdra, as kṣatriya, like that. 

sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi
bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
[Bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a śūdra, he is not a śūdra; neither he is a brāhmaṇa. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the śūdra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate? 

Mahāṁsa: Does he get second initiation? 

Prabhupāda: Everything he will get. 

Mahāṁsa: He gets. 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaiṣṇava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant. 

Pañcadraviḍa: What if the śūdra…, person working as śūdra says, “I can do so much. I can…” 

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa [Caitanya-manjusa]. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good, because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most…, topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so, I mean, high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho… [SB 1.2.6]. [aside:] Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted. 

Pañcadraviḍa: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, “I can’t…” 

Prabhupāda: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal, that’s all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking about…? Don’t talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He’s an animal. 

Mahāṁsa: In one of your purports, Prabhupāda, you said Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Mahārāja, he said a devotee is one who chant sixty-four rounds… 

Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Mahāṁsa: …but you have given us only sixteen rounds. 

Prabhupāda: Sixteen, yes. 

Mahāṁsa: So if we cannot do that, then… 

Prabhupāda: Then you are animal. That’s all. That is the only qualification. He’s not fit for becoming a human being. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Even he may be employed as factory worker or something. 

Prabhupāda: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing. 

Nitāi: One point that you made a few years ago in Vṛndāvana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in USA, keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don’t have time to cultivate spiritual life. 

Prabhupāda: Well, if he likes, he can get time, because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one… That is explained, apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitaḥ, if he simply hears about Kṛṣṇa, then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then it is difficult. Therefore śravaṇam. The first thing is that. The first qualification—he must be eager to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will come. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam [SB 7.5.23]. [japa] [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: …such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kīrtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we… 

Prabhupāda: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. 

Prabhupāda: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that is…, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it. 

Pañcadraviḍa: Some persons we encounter, they don’t even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are… 

Prabhupāda: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not… Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this. 

Satsvarūpa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though. 

Prabhupāda: Then he is animal. 

Satsvarūpa: But still, he’s doing lots of good devotional service. 

Pañcadraviḍa: He may even be manager. 

Prabhupāda: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating he is very eager, and for sleeping he is very eager, and for finishing chanting he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [Prabhupāda leaves room] 

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya Prabhupāda. [break] 

Prabhupāda: And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that “I am so busy.” 

Pañcadraviḍa: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more. 

Prabhupāda: That’s all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break] 

Pañcadraviḍa: …must associate with them, that is difficult. 

Prabhupāda: But you do your business. You don’t follow them. That’s all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The Society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that “Next day also, I am busy,” then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. “Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting”—this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somebody, after initiation he promises, “Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds,” before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaiṣṇava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating. Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiyā. [break] [end] 

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