Prabhupāda: …not this, not that. That will not help. You must act in such a way that these people accept you as superior.
[break] …[Hindi] [break] …not a paid servant.
[break] …bring Bhagavān at your control. You can bring Him at your control by love. Just like Yaśodāmayī. She’s showing the stick: “Kṛṣṇa, if You do like this, then I will chastise You.” And He’s crying. That is premā. [break] Premā pum-artho mahān [Caitanya-manjusa]. That is the highest achievement, to achieve the love of Godhead. And if you love God, then you achieve love of everyone. [Hindi] [break]
Dr. Patel: I like you calling me… “What is that, what you are doing now?” [laughs] [break]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break] …Mahāprabhu has taught us that to remain a fool and rascal before spiritual master is the first qualification of the disciple. Always remain a fool and rascal.
Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached after, after…
Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha, guru more mūrkha dekhi, karila śāsana. “My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me, considering Me a fool number one.” So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi: “My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a first-class mūrkha, fool. And therefore he has chastised Me.” That is the standard of guru and śiṣya. A guru… And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. “If you pat, there are so many bad things.”
Dr. Patel: Pat the dog, it will lick your face.
Prabhupāda: Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ. “And if you chastise, there are so many good qualities.” Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca taḍayet.
Dr. Patel: Na tu lalayet.
Prabhupāda: Na tu lalayet. Therefore either son or disciple, you must always chastise him, not pat him, “Oh, you are very good boy.” “You are nothing. You are doing nothing.” That is the business of the guru, to find out fault.
Dr. Patel: Don’t spare the rod.
Prabhupāda: [chuckles] Although there is no fault, the guru’s business is to: “Where is his fault?” That is guru’s business. Tasmād taḍayet na tu lalayet.
Dr. Patel: Yesterday you had a very big congregation here? Or all the chairs were kept out?
Prabhupāda: Yes. People were coming. Therefore we have given. Not very big congregation, but many people came.
Dr. Patel: You are doing in the Fourth Adhyāya.
Dr. Patel: You are doing in the Fourth Adhyāya for that?
Prabhupāda: Fourth Adhyāya. Yes. Bahūni me vyatītāni janmāni tava cārjuna. [break] [Hindi] [break] …he shall become locust.
Dr. Patel: All locust.
Dr. Patel: Not only that, but the, this, what is this…? [break]
Prabhupāda: …varṇa, there are symptoms. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet. “If you find those lakṣaṇas, symptoms, even in.. in other place…” Suppose if you find the symptoms of caṇḍāla in the family of a brāhmaṇa, he’s a caṇḍāla; he’s not brāhmaṇa.
Dr. Patel: But he is a born caṇḍāla and also wants to be a king, he can’t be.
Prabhupāda: But that is… Because you are… You are… We are, rather, we are also caṇḍālas. [laughs] Therefore we select a caṇḍāla as president.
Indian man (1): Select. We have selected him.
Indian man (1): You are right.
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break] Any intelligent man will say like that. I said… When they fought so much for Hindi language, I said that “Why not Sanskrit?”
Dr. Patel: If you make Sanskrit a compulsory language, forced language, I mean the effort that you have put up to… [break]
Prabhupāda: “…both you and Me, we have changed so many times, taken birth. But you have forgotten; I have not forgotten.” Why this difference?
Dr. Patel: Because God has got the same body throughout in all the avatāras, while you change your body. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata. By, at that time… [break]
Prabhupāda: …if God does not change His body, why these rascals consider Kṛṣṇa as human being?
Dr. Patel: Who considers?
Dr. Patel: I am a mūḍha. [laughter] [break]
Prabhupāda: …mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. You are not mūḍha, but if you think Kṛṣṇa…
Dr. Patel: You sometimes call me a very intelligent and other times you call me a dud. Now who am I? I forget myself. [break]
Prabhupāda: …avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ.
Dr. Patel: Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam.
Prabhupāda: These so-called, the so-called big, big leaders, big, big philosophers, and big, big scholars, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being or “There was no Kṛṣṇa.” Just see how much mūḍha they are.
Dr. Patel: Now, they… There is a section of scholars who think that Kṛṣṇa was not a personality at any time, but it is a legend. But others say that even if it is a legend, it is worth following and worshiping.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Both of them are mūḍhas.
Dr. Patel: They are three, four types of…
Prabhupāda: Both of them are mūḍhas. Because one who thinks that it is not a fact, and one who thinks that “Even it is not fact…,” both of them do not know actually.
Indian man (1): Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Manyante mām…
Indian man (1): Abuddhayaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ. That is the position. “God is nirākāra. Now He has assumed a form, accepting māyā.” This is Māyāvāda philosophy.
Dr. Patel: No, but the difference between God and us, that the God has control over the māyā, while we are controlled by the māyā, the jīvas.
Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is māyā even.
Dr. Patel: Then if they know māyā, then you call them Māyāvādīs.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyāvādī is different.
Dr. Patel: And you call them rascals.
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī is different.
Dr. Patel: These men also.
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī is different. But those who are completely ignorant, that is another thing. That is another thing. Māyāvādīs, they pose themselves as knowing everything.
Dr. Patel: But I tell you, Śaṅkarācārya was not that Māyāvādī which you call Māyāvādī. He was…
Prabhupāda: I am not talking of Śaṅkarācārya.
Dr. Patel: Śaṅkarācārya’s philosophy had been misunderstood, and they are, those are the people who, real Māyāvādīs. Śaṅkarācārya was, I mean, a… [break]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break] There is no mercy. If he says, “No, no. I shall…, I shall rub over your belly and it will be cured,” is that the means? It must go on, operation, surgical operation. That is treatment. If you become kind, “No, no, no, it is very difficult. I will give you something; it will cure,” that is not treatment. [Hindi] [break] Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu. No mercy. “You surrender. Otherwise, if you are envious, then I am sending you to the darkest region of ignorance.” [break] [Hindi] [break] …after, evacuating.
Girirāja: Well, I thought that everyone knew. We follow that.
Dr. Patel: They wash their hands seven times with soap and water.
Devotee: Prabhupāda, they may not be able… [heavy wind]
Prabhupāda: But why they not…
Dr. Patel: If one man does not do it, the bathroom gets infected and all of us get infection. [break]
Prabhupāda: …do not learn?
Devotee: [indistinct] [break]
Dr. Patel: No, diarrhea, bad stomach, they may get vomiting also tomorrow. One man vomited also. [break]
Prabhupāda: …keeping dogs. Is that hygienic?
Dr. Patel: Dogs?
Dr. Patel: Unhygienic. They, they make dogs sleep in their bed.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Dr. Patel: On their laps and all that thing, and what not. [break]
Prabhupāda: …standard. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra…
Dr. Patel: That is the best medicine.
Prabhupāda: That is the best medicine.
Dr. Patel: But sometimes augmentary medicine also is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ [Garuḍa Purāṇa]. Either take this medical or chant twenty-four hours Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: And don’t eat.
Dr. Patel: I… I chastised them by asking them to starve for one day. So they… [break]
Prabhupāda: …take bath in the ocean?
Yaśomatīnandana: No, drinking water.
Dr. Patel: And the drinking water also should be strained to, to…
Indian man (1): That is most important part.
Dr. Patel: Through two muslin cloths. That is the [indistinct]. [break]
Prabhupāda: …fire it, and keep it. It is all right. [break] …do no service. [japa]
Dr. Patel: I have, you see, I have seen in England in my training days in the College of Tropical Medicine and our hospital… [break]
Prabhupāda: …for all disease. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra…, nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt.
Dr. Patel: I was told you are going away on sixth?
Dr. Patel: You are going… [break]
Prabhupāda: …rent tax, about… Suppose the father is tenant.
Dr. Patel: Rent tax [indistinct]. Rent tax.
Prabhupāda: If the father is tenant.
Indian man (1): Rent tax? What is it?
Prabhupāda: No, in the rent tax, suppose the father is tenant, and the father dies, then the son be…
Indian man (1): Son gets it.
Prabhupāda: Gets it.
Indian man (1): [indistinct] [break]
Prabhupāda: …to live in the water and to fight with the crocodile…
Yaśomatīnandana: It is not very good.
Prabhupāda: …it is not very good position. So there are crocodiles. How long you’ll fight with them like that? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We have no difficulty in chanting and working.
Dr. Patel: Let’s go this way.
Prabhupāda: We are mūḍha, and they are big mūḍhas. That’s all.
Dr. Patel: That’s right. [break] [Indians talk in background] Not only spiritually; he was a social revolutionary, a spiritual revolutionary economic revolutionary and what not.
Indian man (1): It was a combined revolution. [break]
Prabhupāda: …there is no revolution, because that is one. Everyone is in agreement with God. That is spiritual world. Therefore there is no question of revolution.
Dr. Patel: If everyone was in agreement with God, there would not have been all sorts of quarrel and Māra-mārī and [indistinct] this… [break]
Prabhupāda: Everyone is not. That is the defect. Everyone is not in agreement.
Dr. Patel: Actually, they divided into camps… [break]
Prabhupāda: They do not know how these things coming, and how to amend it, how to reform it. [break] …countries, they are not happy.
Dr. Patel: They are not happy because the Communism is not in the right. Communism is Cārvāka philo… [break]
Prabhupāda: …others, they’re also in the same background.
Dr. Patel: No, certain basic amenities are necessary. That is…, has been provided in the Hindu religion. What you have to… [break] We have to remind them because your philosophy and that is… [break]
Prabhupāda: So you first of all follow. You first of all follow. Then you teach them.
Dr. Patel: Bābā… [break]
Prabhupāda: …follow, how can I teach them?
Dr. Patel: We are following of the… We have been taught the European way. We are following their method.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are not following.
Dr. Patel: So we will come to the Communism again… [break]
Prabhupāda: …Mahāprabhu says, āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā.
Dr. Patel: That’s right.
Prabhupāda: You must first of all behave yourself. Then you can teach.
Dr. Patel: That is why, I tell you… I cite an example of Gandhi… [break]
Prabhupāda: …one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he cannot have any good quality. And if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, all the good qualities will automatically come to him. Therefore this is the only treatment, to educate people how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be settled up. One remedy.
Indian man (1): For all disease.
Prabhupāda: For all disease. That is also… Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ ca yo ‘vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān…. These varieties of different qualities due to these material modes of nature, but if you transcend… Just like if you remain in the water, there are so many symptoms of danger. You come out of the water, there is no danger. You cannot expect, even if you have got the best boat, you cannot expect that you are safe in the water. But if you remain one inch above the water, then there is no danger. So this devotional service is like that. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate . As soon one is fully engaged in devotional service, then he’s above this material atmosphere. [end]