Morning Walk — December 17, 1973, Los Angeles

Prajāpati: …need for God.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Prajāpati: Need for God.

Prabhupāda: Need for God. Yes. Scientist, you are also writing?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is need. [break] …not falling down. Why the law of gravitation is violated?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the cells are alive when the…

Prabhupāda: They say. They have got this cell theory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So there is…

Prabhupāda: Therefore under condition, this law of gravitation works. It is not unconditional. Then the question will…, who will make the condition?

Karandhara: Well, they say that the ripe…, the green apple’s not falling is just a case of an opposite factor being stronger than the pull of gravity. The strength of the twig holding the apple on is stronger than the pull of gravity.

Prabhupāda: That I say, that the law of gravitation acts under certain condition. This is also conditional.

Karandhara: Well, the law of gravitation is always working, so the energy is always there. It’s just not strong enough to pull the apple down.

Prabhupāda: Working under condition. Working under condition.

Karandhara: Well, scientists say that everything works under condition.

Prabhupāda: Just like you take a little needle, it will go immediately down the water, and you give a big log, it will not go. The weight of the needle and the weight of the big log, much different. Still, the needle will go; the gravitation will work. But to the log it will not work.

Karandhara: Well, there is a counter-law, called buoyancy.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, there are so many laws. If the laws are fulfilled, then your so-called gravitation work. So who made the laws? That is the point. Under certain law, condition, it will not act, and under certain condition it will act. So who made the condition? That is the question. You cannot make finalize the laws of gravitation. It is also under condition. Who makes this condition? That is the point.

[break] …Lord Rāmacandra constructed the bridge with stone on the ocean, it began to float. So He is the condition-maker. He made the condition. He changed the condition: “Now these stones will float.” That’s all. Therefore God is supreme. [break] Law of gravitation did not work when Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that is nice. The scientific discoveries act under relative condition. That is not absolute, final. If such-and-such conditions are there, then the so-called scientific laws will act. Otherwise it will not act. [break] …see. But you cannot see even so many things. Now you cannot see there, what is there. So what is that seeing power?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It’s limited.

Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is limited. Under condition you can see. So what is your seeing? Imperfect seeing. If the sun rises, then you can see. That also not correctly. So what is the value of your seeing? You say, “We want to see God.” And what is the value of your seeing?

Karandhara: Well, they think they can make machines.

Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect.

Karandhara: They have one machine they have they could see right now… Infrared telescopes.

Prabhupāda: No, that machine is imperfect. That is also imperfect. That machine is made by imperfect senses, so it is imperfect.

Karandhara: Imperfect, but they think it is becoming more perfect. They’re always making it more perfect.

Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. They are becoming more perfect means they are imperfect. Becoming more perfect means their always position is imperfect. That very word means that, that you are perpetually imperfect. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is better than doing something than doing nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That dog also doing, jumping, always. Yes, we get… “Bow! Bow! Bow! Ra-ra-ra-ra-ra!” That kind of… Active busy-ness. What is called? Active foolishness. They remain foolish, but still, they are active. That means they are simply creating dangerous position. That’s all. Jagataḥ ahitāḥ, it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā. These demons, their progress means only for the mischief of the world. That’s all. That is demonic progress. Kṣayāya jagato… For the destruction of the world and for mischievous condition of the world, their progress. Is it not? Kṣayāya jagataḥ ahitāḥ [Bg. 16.9]. Kṣayāya means “for destruction and for mischievous condition.” Therefore, despite all advancement of so-called scientific knowledge, the world becoming more and more in dangerous and destructive condition. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: …gives the medicine. [break]

Prajāpati: Today, the only time they use the word “God” is when they are swearing and they are calling on God to damn someone else. Why is such language there? Why are they doing like that?

Prabhupāda: No. Why ordinary men? Even those who are going to church, they are also praying God, “God, give us our daily bread.” These rascals, they have made God as agent for their sense gratification. This is their philosophy. Even from the priest down to the rogues, they have made God as the agent of their sense gratification. That is materialism. “God must supply whatever I want. That is God. Otherwise, I don’t care for God.” This is their philosophy.

Prajāpati: But sometimes they might hit their thumb with a hammer or something, and they will start swearing, calling on God’s name, but in a very bad way.

Prabhupāda: That’s all right. God’s name, God’s… In every respect, these materialists, they want to use God for their sense gratification. That is the prime factor. Our philosophy is that “God is not agent for your sense gratification, but you are agent for God’s satisfaction.” That is our philosophy. Just the opposite. Even so-called religionists, they also take God as the agent of their sense gratification. They go to church to order God, “Supply our bread.” Actually, He is doing. God is supplying bread. But they go for ordering, that “Give us our…” The rascal does not know God is already supplying. Why should we go to church for ordering Him to supply bread? He is already supplying, even to the cats and dogs. They do not know what is the purpose of going to the church. That is going on.

That is the disease, material disease. “I want to satisfy my senses, and anyone who will help me in my sense gratification, I shall worship him. If he does not, then I shall not.” Everywhere. This Nixon became president because he promised that “I shall satisfy your senses.” Now he is not doing so, so “Get out.” This is the whole formula, material world. “You satisfy my senses, you are my friend. And as soon as stop, then you are not my friend.” That’s it. [break] …are considered the most authoritative because they give sense gratification. “You are sick. Now you are unable to gratify your senses. I give you some medicine so you become strong and go on with your sense gratification.” Therefore doctor is very good man.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even I wanted to become a doctor. When I started…

Prabhupāda: Oh, whatever you want to become, the basic principle is sense gratification. Either you become scientist or doctor or engineer, the main thing is, “Bring money.” That’s all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some doctors think that they are doing humanitarian work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so long he will pay. That’s all. “Hospital.” In your country especially. “Hospital” means “to receive.” But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise, “Get out”; it is no longer hospital.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I find doctors are most rascals here. They are greatest demons.

Prabhupāda: Why not the scientists?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think scientists are better than doctors.

Prabhupāda: Better rascal. [laughter] Scientists are better rascal. [laughing]

Karandhara: Well, doctors are simply out for money.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it is terrible. They don’t think about anything else. They just think about money.

Prabhupāda: They have been taught like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the patient doesn’t bring money, he won’t give injection.

Prabhupāda: So the lawyers and everyone. Especially in your country…, this country. Because they require money, so they must have money some way or other. That is the prime principle. They require money. That’s all.

Karandhara: They charge outrageous fees—60 an hour, 70 an hour, 5,000 for a little operation. Some doctors, they simply try to make operations so they can get rich. Whenever you come to see them, they say, “You need an operation.”

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a very big business here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It’s terrible.

Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about 150 a day.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Karandhara: To stay in a hospital costs about 100 or 150 a day.

Prabhupāda: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished.

Karandhara: It’s a very high price.

Rūpānuga: Pay fine.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The more the dangerous is the disease, you have to pay more. [break]

Karandhara: …very mercenary, hospitals.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere mercenary. Lawyers…

Karandhara: The hospital across the street from our temple, if you go there with an emergency, they say, “First give us money. No money, go away.” No matter how serious the injury. “First give us money.”

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no human quality, these doctors.

Karandhara: We have brought devotees there sometimes with serious wounds or injuries, and they just say, “First you give us money or else go away. We don’t care.”

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think the Indian government has set up one oil factory now. I saw in the news that in Mathurā now, the government of India has set up one oil refinery. There will be a factory there.

Prabhupāda: In Mathurā?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Mathurā, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathurā, Vṛndāvana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday Rūpānuga Mahārāja was telling me that about the calculation of time through the atom.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rūpānuga: Calculation of time from the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is talking about Bhāgavatam. By the light passing over the atom, you can calculate the time, the sunlight passing over the atomic particles.

Prabhupāda: So?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How is it done?

Prabhupāda: I have written that?

Rūpānuga: Yes, you have written, Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven’t seen that. [to Rūpānuga:] You said it is in the Fourth Canto?

Rūpānuga: Er, I think it was Third, Third Canto. How the sunlight, you can tell time… That the atom is a subtle form of time, that you can tell time as light passes over the surface of an atom. And the experiment is that you look for atoms in a screen. When the sun comes through the screen, you can see in the sunlight hexatoms, or six atoms, with your naked eye. That experiment is given in Bhāgavatam. It is very wonderful. Vedic science. We should present that as the real, actual science, real atomic science.

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhāgavatam there is regular calculation, what is the distance from one planet to another. Everything is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The calculation is given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every planet is described: what is the constitution, what are the forms of the living entities there. Everything is there. Bhāgavata never says that “These, all the other planets, they are vacant. Only this planet is full of living entities.” Bhāgavata is not so rascal. These rascals may say. Their theory is that “All other planets, they are vacant. Only this planet is filled with…” This rascal theory is not in the Bhāgavata. We see that there is living entity in the water, there is living entity within the sand. How you can say there is no living entity in other planets?

Rūpānuga: They say that “Life as we know it… Life as we know it here does not exist.” Human life.

Prabhupāda: No, how you can say so? The condition is the same. Every planet is made of earth, water, air, fire, the five elements. So if under these condition there are living entities in this planet, why not in that condition living entities in other planet? That is their ignorance, their bluff. The different condition of the planet is that some planet is fiery, some planet is gaseous, some planet is watery. That may be. But after all, they are made of these five elements. And each element, we find there is living entity. So it may be mixture or pure—there must be living entities. And in Bhagavad-gītā it is said sarva-gā. Even in the fire there is living entities. And why not? If living entities can stay in water, why not in fire?

Rūpānuga: On the sun planet.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are also living entities. They are very glowing, fiery. Therefore the whole sun planet is glowing.

Rūpānuga: By their bodily light.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Similarly, here is only one sun planet, and in Vaikuṇṭha all the planets are like sun. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, na tatra bhāsayate sūryo na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ [Bg. 15.6]. There is no necessity of electricity or moonlight or sunlight. Here it is necessity because here only glowing planet is the sun. But in the Vaikuṇṭha, each and every planet is glowing. Therefore there is no need of sun. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: na tatra jāyate…, bhāsayate sūryaḥ. There is no necessity of illumination of sun, moon or electricity.

Prajāpati: Spirit soul, it is also luminous like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] …is luminous, how it is keeping your body warm? As soon as it goes away, immediately cold. Immediately cold. Finished. All temperature finished. These are the evidences.

Rūpānuga: It is said that the soul glows with a light brighter than a thousand suns. In the Vedas? It is stated that the soul glows with a light brighter than a thousand suns. Yes?

Prabhupāda: I do not remember. Maybe. [break] The soul is more valuable than the sun, because the sun is, after all, a matter, and the soul is spirit. Therefore the vast difference of value. You cannot revive the life of a dead body by thousands of suns’ heat. It is not possible. It can burn, but it cannot give light.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like if we compare the velocity of light and the velocity of soul, it is…

Prabhupāda: Far, far greater.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, far different. It can be immediately on the…

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]: “Immediately comes to Me.” So just see the velocity. Tyaktvā deham. Just soon as he gives up this body, immediately goes to Kṛṣṇa. So see the…, how… Where is Kṛṣṇa? You cannot estimate even this material world. And then you enter the spiritual world. And then you go to the highest planet of the spiritual world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. So you cannot calculate how far it is, neither by driving your aeroplane of mind and vāyu you can reach there. But the soul is so powerful that immediately goes there. Just like mind. You are here, many thousand miles away, 25,000 miles away in somewhere, immediately goes, mind goes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just at will. At will.

Prabhupāda: At will. So the soul is still finer. Intelligence is finer than the mind. And soul is finer than the intelligence. So just imagine what is the velocity. Soul is so powerful. By yogī, simply giving up this material body, they can capture the sun rays and immediately go to the sun planet. Beams of the sun. This is science. Where is that science?

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are thoughts made of matter or spirit?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prajāpati: Thoughts—are they made of matter or spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts actually made by spirit, but it is covered by matter. Therefore in the material condition you can think only of matter. Just like this body is covered by so many material things, but actually, the spirit is covered. So the soul being spirit, so long it is covered by matter, it cannot act spiritually. It is obstructed. Not obstructed; covered. It cannot be obstructed. If you like, you can get out of the covering of the matter. So matter cannot obstruct. But it is the will of the soul. Therefore it is called taṭasthā, marginal.

Prajāpati: When we feel pain or discomfort, that is covering also?

Prabhupāda: That is to the material. Soul has no pain. It is the material covering. Just like this chilliness. We are affected by the body, material body, not the soul. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This pleasure and pain is due to the material covering.

Otherwise, soul is unaffected. Asaṅgo ‘yaṁ puruṣaḥ: “This puruṣa, the soul, is unaffected by any material condition.” The same example as I give, that you have a good car. You are identifying yourself. But you are not the car. You are affected if the car is smashed, because you have got absorption in the car, that “This is my car.” The other man is not affected. Similarly, due to our absorption, ahaṁ mameti, “It is my,” “It is mine,” we are suffering.

Rūpānuga: That false ego.

Prabhupāda: False ego.

Rūpānuga: Very subtle.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: This process of identification with the body. So we identify with the body…

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho ‘yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. He is not that, but he is thinking, “I am this.” That is animalism. The animal is always thinking that “I am this body.”

Girirāja: So if somebody no longer identifies with the body, what is his perception of a painful condition?

Prabhupāda: He tolerates. He knows. Just like the same example: You are not the car . If your car is smashed, although you feel sorry, but you know that “I am not a car.” That is the position.

Rūpānuga: So the pain is experienced by the consciousness that is spread all over the body?

Prabhupāda: That is false. That is called illusion. You are not painful, but you are thinking that “I am painful.” That is illusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are conditioned.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we experience from very…, our childhood that I feel pain when somebody hits me.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like we all know that “I am not this body.” But why you are covering the body? So long you are in material condition, you have to do that. The same example: although you are not the motorcar, but if there is some accident, you have to take care of it, because you have to work on it. Therefore this body, although I am not this body, I have to work in this material world with this body. That is the vehicle. You cannot neglect it, neither you become identified. This is knowledge. Yuktāhāra-vihāraś ca [Bg. 6.17]. That is recommended, yuktāhāra, “as much as necessity.” But these people, they are taking the body as everything. They have no information of the soul.

Rūpānuga: They cannot tolerate it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: They cannot tolerate it. Like the prisoner cannot tolerate being in the prison house without knowledge. They cannot get along.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So our consciousness is affected by our conditioning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the perfect consciousness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like the yogīs, they live in the Himalayas without any cloth. They take bath in ice water. They don’t feel anything.

Prabhupāda: No.

Prajāpati: But is it true, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that sometimes the spiritual master has to suffer if his disciples act in sinful way?

Prabhupāda: The same way. Bodily suffering. Infection. The spiritual master accepts the all infection. So as the infection acts on the body, so there is little suffering. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Kṛṣṇa says, “All the sinful reaction of the surrendered soul…” So spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So he has also to accept. [break] …the injunction is one should not accept many disciples. But for preaching work we have to do that. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: …to finish my thesis, so I won’t be able to come every day in the morning.

Prabhupāda: That’s all right. You do your duty. [break]

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I’m so sorry that you have to suffer ‘cause we’re such rascals.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I’ll not suffer.

Karandhara: Then don’t be rascals.

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]

[in the car]

Rūpānuga: …comes in contact with the so-called matter, is that false ego?

Prabhupāda: No. Consciousness is spread all over the body. And due to the false ego… [break]

Rūpānuga: How big is the material atom? Material atom. How big is that?

Prabhupāda: There is measurement.

Rūpānuga: Oh, in Bhāgavat. Bhāgavatam, Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is said that unless six atoms are joined together, you cannot see. [end]

Share with your friends

Task Runner