# Room Conversation with Father Bernard — July 16, 1973, London <audio controls preload="metadata" src="https://media.prabhupada.io/audio/1973/730716R2-LONDON.mp3"></audio> **Prabhupāda:** I am very glad to see you. Father Bernard [speaks softly throughout]: Thank you. **Prabhupāda:** Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Revatīnandana:** So, this is, name is Bernard and he was the... He lived in our temple in Edinburgh. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** He lived in our temple in Edinburgh last summer. He was the treasurer there for a while. Before that he was 23 years... **Prabhupāda:** Do you want another pad? Father Bernard: No, this is fine. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, that's all right. Father Bernard: It's my problem. **Revatīnandana:** Before that he was 20, 23 years, right? In a Cistercian Catholic Monastery. He, they kept silence, and they are vegetarian and he worked there in, in the Monastery agricultural work for 23 years. Then somehow or other he left there and shortly after he left, he joined with us last summer and he went away again. And he was staying in Leeds for a while now his, has some trouble with his legs. So, he has left his job and... **Prabhupāda:** What is his job? **Revatīnandana:** ...visiting us. Father Bernard: Osteoporitis [osteoporosis] Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** And what is this? Father Bernard: It's a disease of the bone. And they have cleaned it five times. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, well was there any accident? Father Bernard: No, it just came four years ago. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: And... **Prabhupāda:** Due to rheumatism? Father Bernard: I have to be very careful rheumatism comes into it in damp weathers. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: I so, often sit and fidget because it goes into cramp you know, and I have to keep moving it. It's not... **Prabhupāda:** So, if you feel uncomfortable, you can give him a chair. Father Bernard: No. **Revatīnandana:** Do you want a chair? Father Bernard: No thank you, no. [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Also, he is, in his, he was raised on a farm in Ireland. And he is expert in taking care of cows. So maybe he has come just today along with the cows. So perhaps [chuckles] maybe something there. **Prabhupāda:** Associate of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa also tents cows: *surabhīr abhipālayantam*. Kṛṣṇa's description in the *Brahma-saṁhitā* is there: *cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa- lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam * [Bs. 5.29] *Surabhī* cows. Kṛṣṇa is very fond of cows. *Abhipālayantam*; tending the cows. *Surabhīr abhipālayantam*. *Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ* and He is served by many thousands of goddess of fortune. The *gopīs*, Lakṣmī, Lakṣmī means "goddess of fortune." *Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata, sahasra* means "cow." And *śata*—hundred, that means many number. *Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ, sambhrama*. *Sambhrama* means "with great respect." Here in this material world we worship Lakṣmī, goddess of fortune to get some opulence and that also, that Lakṣmī does not stay very long. Just like this house belonged to some Lord family. Lakṣmī, but now it does not belong to that man. It has, it is transferred to somebody else therefore Lakṣmī's another name is *Cañcala*—restless. Today the riches are with me, tomorrow with you, next day with him. It does not remain, in another place it is described just like lightning. Lightning in this cloud, and immediately this cloud, again this cloud. Like this. *Cañcala*, this is called *cañcala*—restless. Does not remain in one place permanently. But so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned not only they remain there permanently but with great respect, for Kṛṣṇa. They are always anxious that Kṛṣṇa may not give us up. *Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ*. In this material world Lakṣmī, goddess of fortune is worshipped even by Brahmā and what to speak of ordinary living entities. But in the spiritual world Lakṣmī serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead, with all respect. There are many such narration in the *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* so we, accept this Absolute Truth in His personal feature. What is your understanding of the Absolute Truth? I am asking you because you are a priest. Therefore, I am asking. Father Bernard: Well, I mean, The Absolute Truth is God Himself. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. But is He a personal or not? Father Bernard: He is a person. **Prabhupāda:** That's nice. Father Bernard: Oh, He is a person. **Prabhupāda:** That's nice. Yes, He is a person. He is a person but not a person like us. Father Bernard: Oh no. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: He is infinite, and we are finite. **Prabhupāda:** Yes that's, thank you. Very good this is the understanding. He has got infinite power, opulence: *aiśvaryasya samagrasya > vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva ṣaṇṇāṁ itī bhagan ganā * [*Viṣṇu Purāṇa* 6.5.47] Bhagavān, *bhaga* means "the six kinds of opulences."*Aiśvaryasya samagrasya,* He is the proprietor of all the riches that exist. Similarly, all strength, all beauty, all reputation. All renouncement, all knowledge—everything complete. He has no, nothing lacking—*pūrṇam*. *pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ > pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate > pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate * [*Iso* Invocation] He is so perfect and complete, even the whole thing is taken from you... Him. Still, He is complete. He never deteriorates, *abhayākāya* [?]—indestructible; unfinishable—this is God. His energies are unfinishable. He is not in want of anything, complete. *Ātmārāma*—complete in Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. So, we worship Kṛṣṇa. He does not require our service, He is complete. But he is so kind that even we offer our service, very insignificant in His unlimited relationship. A still because a devotee offers something in faith and love, He accepts it. That is His position; He is not in want. So, this is our Vedic conception of God *pūrṇam*, in all opulences and He is the origin of everything. Because He has got everything, riches, strength, reputation, knowledge, beauty, renouncement, everything, so he is the store of everything, complete. And we are fragmental part and parcel of God. Therefore, we have got also these opulences. Exactly like the drop of water of the ocean, it has got all the chemical properties of the ocean but very minute quantity. It is not lacking all the qualities, chemical you can test a drop of ocean water. Immediately salty. So, we can understand the ocean is salt. And if we further analyse chemically the properties, so the same properties are there in the ocean and the same properties are there in the drop. But very minute quantity. And the ocean has got unlimited quantity that is the difference. So, God, we can understand what is God by studying one living entity because the same thing is there it is only sample, small sample. So whatever propensities we have got God must have got. Because we are fragmental portion. So, to understand the quality of God is also not very difficult. Just like little sample testing one can understand the whole thing. Similarly, by testing the propensities of the living entity one can understand the propensities of God also. But He is unlimited, but we can understand these things are there in God. So, as we are personal, we have got personal individual propensities, everyone wants to keep his individuality. So similarly, God is also individual person. Therefore *Bhāgavata* [1.1.1] says that: *janmādy asya yataḥ*—Absolute Truth is that which is the source of everything. Hm. But He is *abhijñaḥ*—cognizant. Because there are two things: we observe matter and living entities. Living entities are cognizant, they have knowledge. Matter has no knowledge, or not developed knowledge. So, God cannot be like matter, He must be like the living being—*abhijñaḥ*. He knows everything, He knows everything, and He is situated in everyone's heart: > īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ > hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati > [[bg/18/61|[Bg. 18.61] ]] So, He is guiding us, we are not accepting His guidance. Therefore, we are suffering. This is our position. You have read *Bhagavad-gītā*? Father Bernard: A little of it Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: And I read another book [indistinct]. **Revatīnandana:** The *Nectar of Devotion*. *Īśopaniṣad's*. Father Bernard: *Īśopaniṣad's* no, no. **Devotee:** *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? Father Bernard: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. **Prabhupāda:** Oh! Father Bernard: That's the one I was reading. I used to read that quite a lot. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. So why you left our association, what is the difficulty? Father Bernard: I don't know, I think you know I had just come out of the church and more or less rushed into it. Do you know? And I think I would have been better if we had done it steadily you know. And it has probably worked out better now this way [indistinct] things have slowly and come to full realization of it you know. **Prabhupāda:** What difference you find? Father Bernard: Sorry? **Prabhupāda:** What difference you find between church, your church... Father Bernard: Oh, I find there is lots of differences but lots of the basic teachings are the same you know that God is one. And He is infinite, and we are finite. He is like the source of all truth... **Prabhupāda:** Yes, Father Bernard: And we are just small copies of God, like, replicas of God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: And He doesn't need us, but we need Him. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That's nice. Father Bernard: He can do quite well without us, but we can't live without Him. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That, we are dependent. Father Bernard: When we get down to the basics... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Father Bernard: When you get down to the basics you know the two... **Prabhupāda:** Bikes? What is that? Father Bernard: Basics **Revatīnandana:** Basics. **Prabhupāda:** Basics. Yes. Yes. So, Christianity in our philosophy we can very well cooperate. Father Bernard: Indeed yes. **Prabhupāda:** But the only difficulty is whether you agree also or not. That in our opinion the Christians are not following strictly the Christian doctrines. Father Bernard: No, they have broken away. They have 400 and something different little branches and everyone says, "I am right" and no one knows. [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** And basically, Christian religion it does not allow killing. "Thou shall not kill." Father Bernard: That's right. **Prabhupāda:** But these people are killing. Father Bernard: Indeed yes. **Prabhupāda:** So, if they strictly follow the 10 Commandments of Lord Jesus Christ, that can be a very good renaissance of the world. Father Bernard: Indeed, it can. **Prabhupāda:** Along with these cooperation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Combined together we can turn the whole situation of the world. Unfortunately, they will not... Father Bernard: Well unfortunately most of the bishops in the higherarchy of the Church. I mean they are in it for power, it's a [indistinct], it's a good job for a lot of them. There's lots of money, they have big cars to drive around in. So, for them it is more a job than a vocation. I've done this a lot with priests myself you know. Over the past few years, I was in charge of a parish here in London. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: And I found for lots of them, it was a job, and they were all looking for their day off. They had one day off a week. You know. They were priests for six days and they were something else for the other day. And it was just a job, and some livings had a better salary than the other. And they were all looking you know to go to the good livings where the money was. And for the most importance but to come down to the Christianity side where they are very good. They could stand up in the pulpit preach but probably 50% of them didn't believe what they were preaching. And very few of them lived up to it. You know I had an assistant here in Camden Town when I was parish priest of Camden Town. He was known, I mean his first port of call was the pub. The Abbey Tavern for a pint of bitter. **Revatīnandana:** Bitter means beer. Father Bernard: It's a kind of beer and he was well known in there. He would come in and "what are you having father? Your usual?" And he was my assistant. And it was probably through him that I first you know got doubts about the church and got really restless. And it was shortly after that I went up to him and I don't know why I went to him, and you know one day. I just went to him, and I met one of the devotees and ended up at the temple. And I rather think I've rushed into it, do you know? **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: Knew nothing but just charged in... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: And I think I should have waited you know. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: Took [indistinct] to be a setting up being so impulsive. **Prabhupāda:** So, you try to convince him of our philosophy more and more. **Revatīnandana:** I used to talk to him up in Edinburgh. Yeah. Father Bernard: And there's another thing I find very difficult. I like to chant *japa*. I'm much happier, Kiśora will tell you, to wander off and sit in a field by myself. I can really concentrate... **Prabhupāda:** What is that? **Revatīnandana:** He says, he feels more comfortable chanting *japa* when he is by himself. He wants to go off somewhere. Father Bernard: I can't do it... **Prabhupāda:** Well, you can do that. Father Bernard: You know what I mean with a... Kiśora will know that because I was always lost. **Prabhupāda:** No, you can chant alone also. But this chanting alone is meant for advanced devotees. Ordinary neophyte devotees if they are allowed to chant alone, they will think of so many other things. They cannot concentrate. Father Bernard: I find the opposite I can't concentrate in a... **Prabhupāda:** [laughs] Father Bernard: You know [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** Therefore... A neophyte devotee is advised for preaching. Preaching is very good engagement; he has the opportunity of meeting many people. Talking about Kṛṣṇa, that is a good opportunity, that is also chanting, preaching is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. So those who are not very advanced they should first of all try to preach. Talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting: *śravaṇaṁkīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ* [*Bhāg.* 7.5.23], *kīrtanaṁ*. *Kīrtanaṁ*means "describing, narrating." Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare K... This is also *kīrtana* and if you describe just like the *Bhāgavata*, Śukadeva Gosvāmī describes about Kṛṣṇa, this is also chanting. That is accepted this chanting: *śrī-viṣṇoḥśravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane* [[cc/madhya/22/136|[Cc. Madhya 22.136] ]]. This word is used *kīrtana*, he narrated about Kṛṣṇa. *Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ* [[sb/1/1/1|[SB. 1.1.1] ]]. So many things, describing. Describing the Absolute Truth in His various features. At the end, there in the *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*, there are 12 Cantos. So, nine Cantos have been devoted for understanding the impersonal and localised aspect of the Absolute Truth—Brahma[n] and Paramātmā. And from the tenth Canto Vyāsadeva describes about the personal feature. And the personal feature is, in the tenth Canto is therefore description of the face, whether smiling. The first and second Canto are considered to be the lotus feet of the Lord. The third and fourth Canto this part, and the fifth Canto this part, sixth Canto this part. In this way nine Cantos have being devoted for understanding the impersonal... And just like in the beginning the *Bhāgavata* describes *janmādy asya yataḥ*. Although in the beginning Vyāsadeva has offered his obeisances: *oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya*. But when he describes, he describes impersonally; *janmādy asya yataḥ*—the Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates. But immediately says *janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś ca, artheṣv. Anvayāt*—directly or indirectly in all subject matter, He is *abhijñaḥ*. *Abhijñaḥ* means "quite conversant."Immediately He becomes person, as soon as this word is used *abhijñaḥ*—in full knowledge. Then immediately He becomes... In the beginning *janmādy asya yataḥ;* the original source of everything. But immediately he begins *abhijñaḥ, abhijñaḥ* means "cognizant," He knows everything. Just like I claim, this is my body. But I am not *abhijñaḥ*, I do not know all the details of my body, I do not know. There are a big machine within my body, the heart, the stomach, how they are acting? Of course, when we study anatomic philosophy, physiology we understand theoretically something. But actually, you do not know how it is acting. We take some solid food, and it goes to the stomach and immediately it is divided into so many parts. It becomes digested and there are many secretion formed and it goes to the heart it becomes red and then again distributed as blood and then some person it becomes stool, and some person it becomes urine, and so many things. But we do not know, what is being done, every day we have got this experience. And as soon as there is some miss-adjustment immediately we fall sick. Things do not go nicely. How then I am claiming this is my body? So, our knowledge is not perfect, we are not *abhijñaḥ*. But God's creation is so perfect He knows everything; *abhijñaḥ*. This word is used there. Ah, indirectly and directly. Directly just like we know we are eating something and there is some metabolic action going on and we are feeling strong—this is direct. But indirectly how it is being done we do not know. That we do not, theoretical some knowledge. So, it is being done by some inconceivable, we cannot understand it, we cannot explain it. We explained some theoretically and not very perfectly. But it is being done. Therefore, it is to be understood that I have got some inner energy which I do not know myself. Sometimes I get perspiration how the perspiration is coming, is being manufactured. Sometimes perspiration is so much that if we smear like this it comes, half an hour's water. But how this water came into existence? But it is factual, and it is manufactured within my body by some inconceivable energy. Therefore, it is to be concluded I have got some inconceivable energy. You cannot deny it. So, I am a little portion of God, I have got inconceivable energy. How much inconceivable energy is there in stock of the unlimited? So, if I say the whole Pacific Ocean is the perspiration of God, what is the wrong there? How you can refute? This argument. Therefore, when we say God created, where is the wrong? How the scientists will explain where from the ocean came into existence? And if I say it has come from the perspiration of God, what is the wrong? If I am a little portion of God, I can create one ounce of salty water, perspiration. And God who is unlimited why He cannot create millions of oceans like this? And He knows how to do it—*abhijñaḥ*. He knows how to do it. I do not know, although it is coming. That is the difference between God and me. **Revatīnandana:** I am producing the water, but I don't know how it... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: That's right. **Revatīnandana:** He is producing, and He does know. **Prabhupāda:** He knows. Father Bernard: He knows. **Prabhupāda:** He knows heartbeats, the heart. So, we have to understand God like that. And this science is *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*—and *Bhagavad-gītā*. So, it is not sectarian, it is science of God. Actually, if the Christian people, they are serious about God they should read all this literature. They should not be biased. Suppose if you are after for knowledge, you cannot be biased that I shall stick to this educational institution, not to that. Then you cannot make advancement. Just like sometimes Indian students they come to your country for higher advanced, knowledge. So, everyone goes. Similarly, if for advanced knowledge in spiritual knowledge if other people belong to other religion, they come to India or to this..., Vedic culture. What is the harm? Why they should be so, what is called? Biased. **Revatīnandana:** Or prejudiced. **Prabhupāda:** Prejudiced. No, it is no religion. This cooperation should be done now, to save the world. Father Bernard: That's right. **Prabhupāda:** Otherwise, it is doomed. No prejudiced opinion, for knowledge sake they should cooperate. If there is more information in the Vedic culture that is a fact. Everyone admits. Everyone who is actually after knowledge, they admit. So now this prejudiced should be given up. People are deteriorating in their spiritual culture. I've seen in London nobody goes to churches; they are so many remnant churches. Why? Father Bernard: We abandoned them. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: And many of them are redundant. **Prabhupāda:** Why? In this Christian country and so many millions of pounds are spent for constructing the churches, why they should be vacant? Because people are losing interest. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** This is not good. If they, a human being loses interest in religion he becomes animal. *Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ* [*Hitopadeśa* 25]. Because the animals have no religion, so if the human being deteriorate to that position without religion, he is no better than animal. Father Bernard: That's it. **Prabhupāda:** So how you can be happy in the animal societies? That is not possible. So, we should take note of this deterioration and those who are responsible for guiding people they must cooperate with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is [indistinct]. It is not a sentimental religious movement; it is a science. Everyone should come forward, if anyone wants really welfare of the human society. All of the nations or of the people, whatever you say. But our propaganda is not to a particular nation or community but to the human society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: *bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra * [*Cc. Ādi* 9.41] He advises, anyone who has taken birth in India because in India these things are available. Not only available they are made very easy for understanding by the *ācārya's*. Just like Rāmānujācārya, Mādhavācārya, all big big *ācārya's*. So let us state Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have made things easy. The same thing but process made very easy. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare nāma, Hare..., this is also quoted from *śāśtra*, not that He has manufactured. This is recommended in the *śāśtra.* *harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā* [*Cc. Ādi* 17.21] And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so liberal, He says God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names also. But the name must be of God, just like what, we have got a list of names of God. Some of them, just like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, Janārdana, Mādhava, Madhusūdana, like so many names. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that you chant the name of God which ever you like, which ever you like, which ever name... Father Bernard: Which ever name you like? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: He'll answer... **Prabhupāda:** So, if you have got a name of God... Father Bernard: A name of God... **Prabhupāda:** You can chant that also. What is the name of God in Christian science... Christian?... Father Bernard: Well, I suppose Jesus, really. **Prabhupāda:** Jesus is the son of God. Father Bernard: Jesus is the son of God, but he is—in Christianity he is also God. There are three persons in the one God, you see. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit all... It's three different persons they are all the one God. It's really, it's just God. **Prabhupāda:** Now what is the actual name of God in Christian. Devotee 2: Jehovah. Father Bernard: Jehovah, no that is in the Jewish. It comes in the old Testament. **Revatīnandana:** Well in the old Testament... Father Bernard: That's the old Testament. You see? **Revatīnandana:** In the old Testament the names are Jehovah, Yahweh... Father Bernard: Yahweh is the same. **Revatīnandana:** Yahweh is another one in the Bible, in the old Testament. **Prabhupāda:** Javin? **Revatīnandana:** Yahweh, you know Javin Yahweh... Father Bernard: Jehovah they are in the old Testament [indistinct] just God. We have no real name—just God. **Prabhupāda:** That is the point [chuckles] I'm... Father Bernard: He's just God, I mean in Jesus it's referred to as God he is one of the persons in the Godhead. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. **Prabhupāda:** No. **Revatīnandana:** So, they have this, Catholic doctrine. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Is that God is one God... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** But he is simultaneously three persons, the father who is God, the son who is Jesus... Father Bernard: He's God. **Revatīnandana:** And Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit. **Prabhupāda:** What is that? **Revatīnandana:** [sighs] Father Bernard: It's the... **Prabhupāda:** There is living entity... Father Bernard: It's the breath of God which came down from heaven at Pentecost. **Prabhupāda:** Living entities. **Revatīnandana:** Well, yes and... Father Bernard: It is an entity, the living breath of God. **Revatīnandana:** Exact, exactly when Christ departed he said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide his disciples and that Holy Spirit was said to descend upon them 40 days later. A time that is called Pentecost, and they were to be guided from inside by the Holy Spirit. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore, this spirit means Paramātmā? **Revatīnandana:** [chuckles] that is my understanding. That it would be Paramātmā. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. So, the, we have the conception Paramātmā also. And God so what is the position of the living entity? **Revatīnandana:** There is some, disagreement... **Prabhupāda:** There is no definite... **Revatīnandana:** There is no, there is no... Father Bernard: Nothing definite really, it's... **Prabhupāda:** That is imperfect. Father Bernard: You see when you have gone to that line you start coming to what is called... **Prabhupāda:** We have got clear conception. Father Bernard: You know they. Just God. Really. **Prabhupāda:** No just like I say, I explain just now. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Living entity is fragmental portion of God the example is that the drop of ocean water. That is the position of the living entity. Father Bernard: Yes, each person is a living entity. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Father Bernard: In God. And they are fashioned... **Prabhupāda:** Same here, everything is in God... Father Bernard: And they are made in the image of God. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Father Bernard: Each person is made in the image of God. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. So, each person means... Father Bernard: Also, each person has a free will. They can accept God or reject Him. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That we [indistinct] Father Bernard: It's up to them. God doesn't need them. **Revatīnandana:** See God has also got a free will. Father Bernard: That's it. **Revatīnandana:** Therefore, those made in the image of God they must also have free will. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** But minute, little. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Dependent on the free will of God. Father Bernard: That's right. **Prabhupāda:** I wish to do something but unless it is sanctioned by God, I cannot do it. Father Bernard: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** This is my position. Just like I want to start some business. But I have to take licence from the government. I cannot start immediately, whimsically. Father Bernard: No. **Prabhupāda:** I must take sanctioned by the government. Then I can start. Similarly, that is explained in the *Bhagavad-gītā*: *mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca* [[bg/15/15|[Bg. 15.15] ]]. *Anu, anu,* *anumantā*. Sanction is given by God. Paramātmā. We are wanting to do something, the Paramātmā is there within my heart. Unless He sanctions, I cannot do it. But because I have got little freedom, even I want to do something against the sanction, he gives sanction "all right you can do it what can be done? You are persistent" and that is our, my condition. That is illusion. That we want to do against the sanction. God is unwillingly giving, without His sanction I cannot. But God is unwillingly give me sanction. "All right, you'll suffer what can I do?" I say that "don't do this you will suffer" but if you are insistent, you are insisting repeatedly then you can do, what can I do? **Devotee:** But He is not responsible? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Devotee:** He is not responsible. **Prabhupāda:** He is not responsible. Father Bernard: No. **Prabhupāda:** He is not responsible, he is responsible. Because God says "you don't do it, you will suffer." But he persists, "no I shall do it." So, when he is persistent God says "all right do it at your risk." Just like there is law, government. The will. Don't do this—law. But if I do it that is at my risk. Then you are punishable. This is going on. But that is the position of the materialistic person. They are doing things against the will. Just like it is clear declaration in the Bible "though shalt not kill." And they are killing against the... Father Bernard: Will of God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Therefore, they must suffer. Father Bernard: Hmm. **Prabhupāda:** They must suffer! But they do not understand this simple thing. And still, they are declaring Christian. What kind of Christian? I do not know. They are doing against the principle of Christian, Christianity. And they are suffering, and still, they will not give it up. I do not know why the Christian priests also do not teach them that why you're doing against the order of Lord Jesus Christ, against Bible. I do not know why they are sleeping. Am I right or not? Father Bernard: Oh, you are dead right... You're right yes. **Prabhupāda:** So, they have taken charge, they are paid for they have so many churches, they have so many priestly order. Father Bernard: That's right. **Prabhupāda:** The Pope is there. Why they are not stopping this? What is the answer? Father Bernard: Charlatans. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. Father Bernard: Each one of them. **Revatīnandana:** Lacking knowledge. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** You, see? Wilfully neglecting, wilfully. Otherwise Christianism is as good as Vaiṣṇavaism. Father Bernard: Yes, but unfortunately the Catholic Church you see. More or less ignores the Old Testament. And it is in the Old Testament, you will find [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** No, it is in the New Testament, the Bible also. **Revatīnandana:** He is saying that the Catholic Church... **Prabhupāda:** Hah. **Revatīnandana:** Ignores... **Prabhupāda:** Hah. **Revatīnandana:** The Old Testament. Where most of the laws and rules are given. **Prabhupāda:** So why they should ignore? Father Bernard: You see Christ when he [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** If it is actually fact, if it is truth. Why they should ignore? Father Bernard: You see... **Revatīnandana:** Christ himself said I did not come to deny the law... Father Bernard: Ah yes... **Revatīnandana:** I came to fulfil the law. **Prabhupāda:** Just see. **Revatīnandana:** But they are neglecting the law. [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Just see, so therefore they are disobeying Christ. Disobeying Christ. Father Bernard: [indistinct] there is another law, I give you, that you love one another. **Revatīnandana:** But not the animals. Father Bernard: No. **Revatīnandana:** Them we don't love. We kill them. Father Bernard: No, and the Catholic Church you know has... I wouldn't think... **Prabhupāda:** That is not love. Father Bernard: Many, many Catholics who [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** Our, our designation of *sādhu*—saintly person. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Is: *suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ* [[bg/5/29|[Bg. 5.29] ]]. He is friend of all living entities. Father Bernard: Oh yes. **Prabhupāda:** *Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ*, not that he is friend of the humankind... Father Bernard: No. **Prabhupāda:** Not of the animals. No. He is not a *sādhu*. He is not a saintly person. Saintly person, the description is given in the *śāśtra*. *Titikṣavaḥ*—very tolerant [[sb/3/25/21|[SB. 3.25.21] ]]. Because the world is full of sinful activities and he has to live as a saintly person, so he has to tolerate so many things. And he will meet so many opposing elements, therefore he has to become tolerant; *titikṣavaḥ*. *Kāruṇikāḥ*—at the same time very kind. He has to preach God consciousness; he is kind to everyone. They are suffering without God consciousness. Therefore, toleration and kindness. *Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ*, oh why they are tolerant and *kāruṇikāḥ*? *Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ*. He is friend of all living entities. It doesn't... A, a saintly person will not, cannot see that even a worm is fasting. He must be given food. What to speak of killing. **Revatīnandana:** So, they will argue that Christ was saintly person and he used to eat fishes. Father Bernard: Yes. **Revatīnandana:** You, see? Or used to eat meat. It mentions in the Bible. Father Bernard: In the Bible that he'd... **Revatīnandana:** Christ would sometimes take from the ah...eat fishes. **Prabhupāda:** Then why, why he said "thou shalt not kill?" **Revatīnandana:** So, they have... **Prabhupāda:** That, the adjustment will be that when there is no other food. What can be done? That is another thing. But when there is so many other foodstuff why should one unnecessarily kill? Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Just like sometimes in war field. They use the horses or the dogs. It happens so, sometimes they ate stool. In the last war. Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** But that does not mean that generally they should eat. When there is no other food, but human life is important. So, he has to eat something. If there is no other food. So, Christ might have done like this but that is not his opinion that you should kill and eat. And in another place, I understand that this vegetables are your meat. What is that? **Revatīnandana:** The grains are the... What is it? The fruits of the tree is... **Prabhupāda:** Ah! **Revatīnandana:** And the grains of the earth shall be your food. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** That is in the Genesis book of the old Testament of the Bible. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Father Bernard: That's at the very beginning. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. So that means if you adjust, if you have got fruits, you have got grains. Why should you eat meat? Just like we are eating, we are not starving. So, we are eating the grains, the milk, the fruits, the flower, very palatable dishes. So, we are not dying. Then come to rationalism, so why unnecessarily you should kill. **Revatīnandana:** They will say you're also killing the vegetables. **Prabhupāda:** That is another thing. **Revatīnandana:** But they will argue like that. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, but we are killing not for our own purpose. We are killing for Kṛṣṇa, and it is actually not killing. It is actually not killing because when you take the grains, the plant is already dead. Father Bernard: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** You know that? **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, so it is not killing. **Revatīnandana:** They will say what about the carrots? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? [indistinct], but that is not kill. Father Bernard: [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** We take the carrots fruit, but the tree is there. It will produce again carrot. **Revatīnandana:** [chuckles] they pull them out...Ha. Father Bernard: Yes, but it is already fully grown... **Revatīnandana:** They take them from the ground. **Prabhupāda:** No. Father Bernard: It dies if you don't take it up; it's dead already. When it is fully grown. **Revatīnandana:** No, it is still alive. **Prabhupāda:** But, but the thing is. That, it is sanctioned... **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa says *patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ* [[bg/9/26|[Bg. 9.26] ]]. So, we have to pluck it for Kṛṣṇa—not for me. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** If there is sin, it is Kṛṣṇa responsible, we are not responsible. **Revatīnandana:** So, the proper understanding is that, I can, I cannot kill but if the scripture says you may kill this... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** Then you may kill it. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** For some purpose... **Prabhupāda:** That is your [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** When the scripture ordains... Otherwise you cannot kill. **Prabhupāda:** Otherwise, you cannot kill. **Revatīnandana:** Ah... **Prabhupāda:** You must get sanction. Just like a man is killed by the order of the High Court Judge, otherwise, he cannot kill. He will be murdered. When there is order that this man should be killed, then can kill. You are not responsible for murdering if the commander says you kill so many other soldiers. You are not responsible but without that order if you kill a person then you are a murderer. Immediately you will be hanged. Life for life. So, if there is sanction, that is another thing but who is sanctioning this slaughterhouse? Where is the sanction? Either in the Bible or in the Old Testament that keep a slaughterhouse and go on killing. No. Then who will be responsible for this sinful activities? And who will suffer? But these rascals are there, so ignorant they are doing that. And nobody is checking them. This is the horrible condition of the society. That there is another commandment, thou shalt not provoke others wife or something like that. **Devotee:** Yes Father Bernard: [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. ... [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** And this going on. This is going on with freedom, yes you can mix with others wife and pollute her and do everything. So how it is possible? I, I don't blame the Christian people, the whole world is going like that. So how they can be happy, they want peace, they want prosperity, they want no war, how it is possible? It is not possible. This message must be broadcast; that you are so sinful you cannot be happy. Cannot be happy. Now stop this sinful activities therefore our propaganda is—no illicit sex. No meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These four pillars contains all sins. If you stop this your sinful life is finished. And in the *Bhagavad-gītā* it is said: *yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ* . Ah, find out this verse. *yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām > te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ* [[bg/7/28|[Bg. 7.28] ]] Why He is saying? This is statement in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, who can become real devotee of God. That is stated. Śrutakīrti: Read the translation? **Prabhupāda:** No, you read the verse. Śrutakīrti: *yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁjanānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām te dvandva-moha-nirmuktābhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ* [[bg/7/28|[Bg. 7.28] ]] "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." **Prabhupāda:** This it, this is it. So those who are engaged in sinful activity, they cannot become devotee and without devotion nobody can understand what is God. *bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ * [[bg/18/55|[Bg. 18.55] ]] Find out this verse. *Bhaktyā*. One can understand God by being purified as being engaged in devotional service. Then He becomes revealed: *sevonmukhe hi jihvādau, svayam eva*... [[cc/madhya/17/136|[Cc. Madhya 17.136] ]], so God is revealed. It is not a calculation, here is God. Material calculation. He reveals. Yes, now you can see Me. Revelation. It is not by mathematical calculation. Ah, what is that? Śrutakīrti: *Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti*... **Prabhupāda:** Hah. Śrutakīrti: *yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā viśate tad anantaram* [[bg/18/55|[Bg. 18.55] ]] **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Śrutakīrti: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." **Prabhupāda:** This is. First of all, one has to become sinless. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Then he can understand, he can engage himself in devotional service and when he engages himself in devotional service. Then he understands what is God, then he is admitted in the spiritual kingdom. Simple thing. Not that by force sputnik we can enter in the kingdom of God. That is not possible. You must be qualified. So, we are preaching this science of God, it is not a sectarian religion. Religion is a kind of faith. So, I believe in this, I believe in that. But it is a science, you may believe or not believe, the science is science, fact is fact. **Revatīnandana:** So many times, they, like when I was growing up I, I was trained in the Catholic Sunday school. Catechism class. And they used to teach us about, something about God, about the soul and like that. And I would try to understand it, I was attracted, you know. But there was so many things that I was told that I had to accept as a mystery. Just like for example that the father is there, and the son is there. But they are both one person. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** I would say how is that. How is the son and the father both one person? I couldn't understand. **Prabhupāda:** And they could not explain? **Revatīnandana:** No, and then when you ask—that is a mystery. A mystery means you have to accept it simply on faith. **Prabhupāda:** No [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** But it does not satisfy the intelligence. **Prabhupāda:** That is explanation, and the same explanation. Just like the drop of ocean water—is the same qualitatively but quantitatively it is different. This is the explanation. I am the son of God therefore all the qualities of God—is there. I am one. Hm. Just like in the ordinary case, the son has got also a body, two hands, two legs, one head. **Revatīnandana:** They don't believe it. **Prabhupāda:** No, in that way he is equal with the Father. **Revatīnandana:** Oh, the son, oh when you... There is two words son and the sun. **Prabhupāda:** No no not sun. I'm speaking of the son. **Revatīnandana:** [chuckles] yeah. **Prabhupāda:** How do you explain. **Revatīnandana:** All right. Hm. **Prabhupāda:** The father and son. But equality, the father has got two hands and the son has got two hands. Everything bodily expression, even in color, even the facial expression. Hm. But the father is not the son. When the mother comes the relation is different. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** So simultaneously one and different. That is our philosophy—*acintya-bhedābheda*. One and different. This is also there, but they cannot explain. Because they have no such knowledge, but the fact is there. **Revatīnandana:** Also, with the interest of the father is there and the son... **Prabhupāda:** [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** He acts according to that interest. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** That is another kind of oneness. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, oneness. He does not disagree with the interest of the father. The Father wants that all living entities should come back to Him. And He is executing the same mission, come back through Me, back to home back to Godhead. **Revatīnandana:** But then the question comes how can you say that the name of the son is the same as the name of the Father? They are related... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Still, they are lacking a name for the Father. **Prabhupāda:** That, then they, then the charge will be that you do not know the name of the Father. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** That is, it. There is name of the Father, but you do not know. **Revatīnandana:** Even in the Old Testament there is name for the Father. **Prabhupāda:** That's it. **Revatīnandana:** But he says they don't accept it. **Prabhupāda:** They don't, they don't accept, or you do not know. If you don't accept that means you do not know also. **Revatīnandana:** And also, Christ prays: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name!" **Prabhupāda:** That's it! But they do not know the name. **Revatīnandana:** They don't do it [chuckles] they don't hallow the name of the Father. **Prabhupāda:** Just see. **Revatīnandana:** And when we do it, they say it is pagan. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** [laughs] how much ignorant they are. Father Bernard: You see most of the prayers will begin, "oh God" or "almighty God" but it is just God He has no... **Revatīnandana:** It is a definition. Father Bernard: Yes, it is just no name [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** If God is a person, He must have... Just like we have got the name Kṛṣṇa. We have got many names. Father Bernard: That's right, that's one of His names. **Prabhupāda:** But one of the name is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means "all attractive." All attractive. So, God must be all attractive. God should not be attractive for you and not for me. That is not God. Father Bernard: Attractive for all. **Prabhupāda:** He must be all attractive, that is His perfectness. Kṛṣṇa. Actually, Kṛṣṇa is all attractive when Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth. He acted in so many ways; He is all attractive. Somebody wanted to fight with Him and He could fight very nicely, so that the opposite party was killed. And somebody wanted to love Him, and that was a perfect. Somebody wanted to love Him as son, and that is perfect. As friend that is perfect and that is all attractive. There are reciprocation of different humors, 12 humors. *Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu.* And Kṛṣṇa: *raso vai saḥ* [*Taittirīya Upaniṣad*, 2.7.1]. He is the reservoir of all attractiveness. He can deal with everyone as He wants to do. *ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham* [[bg/4/11|[Bg. 4.11] ]] That is all attractive. Hm. If you wants to deal with Kṛṣṇa as friend, He is all attractive. As lover, all attractive. As enemy, all attractive. **Revatīnandana:** Kaṁsa he was completely attracted. [laughs] **Prabhupāda:** Talk of, everyone [indistinct] attracted. Therefore, there is the fullness—Kṛṣṇa that is explained by Jīva Gosvāmī. And the *Vedas* also. This is the [indistinct] of God—Kṛṣṇa. And it is confirmed: *kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam* [[sb/1/3/28|[SB. 1.3.28] ]]. There are many gods, God means controller, subordinate many. But *Caitanya-caritāmṛta* says that there are many gods, demigods, gods. Everyone is controller but *Caitanya-caritāmṛta* [*Ādi* 5.142] says according to the version of *Bhāgavata*: *ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa*. The real God is Kṛṣṇa. All others are *saba bhṛtya*—they are all servants. All others they are servants, *ekala īśvara; īśvara parama-kṛṣṇa* [Bs. 5.1]. In the *Brahma-saṁhitā* it is said. Ah, the supreme Lord, there may be many lords but real Lord is Kṛṣṇa. So, the Christians they do not know the real Lord is Kṛṣṇa, the father of Jesus Christ. So, we, we are helping everyone every religion is searching after God. We are helping, here is God. Take it, and be happy. **Revatīnandana:** I'm noticing if a analogist situation between the time now and the time when Christ was appearing. At that time the established religious community was the Jewish faith. Christ was trying to force them to depart from the ritual and begin to actually love God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** To serve God. And because they did not want to give up their material positions as priests etc. They became enemies of Christ defying that [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** You'll find that in: *mūrkhāya upadeśa hi prakopāya* [*Nīti Śāstra*]. If you advise something to a rascal he will be angry. That is the psychology. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. Now today the, for example in the Bible predicts the second coming of the Christ. That at the time when devastation is near. That sometimes it says the Christ, sometimes it says the anointed one will come. And those who have got any sense they will follow him. At that time of danger. Right. So if he is coming and preaching love of God they should recognize. Right. But now the same followers of Christ have become the established religion attached to their material position. And when we preach love of God, in your service they are condemning us. Once they tried, once they invited me to a program, only to attack me. Not physically but they were laying for me with so many arguments. They all jumped up; you know. When I, after I had finished speaking and there was a big quarrel. And I told them they are hypocrites [chuckles] and I walked out and left the place you know. And ah, but in this way, this is the time... **Prabhupāda:** They are not after truth. **Revatīnandana:** No. **Prabhupāda:** Hah. **Revatīnandana:** They are protecting their position. **Prabhupāda:** That's all. **Revatīnandana:** I think the time and devastation of coming is here. The atomic bombs are there... Everything is there. It's a very dangerous time. **Prabhupāda:** They have already experienced so many wars... **Revatīnandana:** ...So I was preaching love of God. **Prabhupāda:** But they are not incensed. Wars, epidemic, pestilence and the war is going on. So, what is the League of Nation? Simply war. War, war of exchange of words. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. So called United Nations they are all quarrelling. **Prabhupāda:** Disunited. **Revatīnandana:** Quarrelling constantly. **Prabhupāda:** That's all. A quarrelling society, that's all. Debating society. First of all, they started the League of Nations, after the first war. That failed. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** Again, they have started this United Nations, and this is also useless. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** So, without God consciousness everything is useless. That is stated in the Vedic literature ah: *bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya > jātiḥ japas tapaḥ kriyaḥ > aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam * [[cc/madhya/19/75|[Cc. Madhya 19.75] ]] If there is no God consciousness. The big nationality—*jātiḥ.* Or big, big achievement, big success. All these things are just like decoration of the dead body. *Aprāṇasyeva*—a dead body means without life. So, we go on decorating it. So, what is the use? *Loka-rañjanam*—some people will say "oh it is very nicely decorated." But what is the use of decorating a lifeless body? It is simply a waste of money. You are living body if I give you nice dress it is utilized. But if your body is dead oh what is the use of decorating it is simply a waste of money. So, these modern civilization is decorating the dead body, that's all. And praising amongst themselves, "oh you are so big." *saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharai,* *saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ* [*Bhāg.* *2.3.19*] Anyone who is not God conscious he is an animal. So other animals are giving him vote. So, what is the... Animal is being elected by the votes of some other animals. So, what is the benefit? This is going on; the so-called democracy means one big animal. Just like Nixon, he is made president. Now they are accusing oh you are culprit you are so on and so on and so on. He's not leaving because he's animal. He has no feeling of insight that these people are insulting me, why shall I stick to this position? But he's not honest. **Revatīnandana:** They elect the big animal and... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Big animal. **Revatīnandana:** And the big animal devours them. **Prabhupāda:** That's all. **Revatīnandana:** And they complain [laughs]. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes [chuckles], and they want such animal devouring. **Revatīnandana:** Yes [laughs]. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So, this is going on in very bad condition. Therefore, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says; *kara para-upakāra*. Do good to others. How? By making your life perfect by understanding this Vedic literature. *bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra * [*Cc. Ādi* 9.41] **Revatīnandana:** Sometimes it seems to me that of all the classes of people in the society. The hypocrite is actually the lowest of all. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. They are disqualified in so many ways there is no end of the list of their disqualification. You see. *mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ * [[sb/1/1/10|[SB. 1.1.10] ]] These are all described in the *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. First of all, they are all bad—*mandāḥ*. Or slow. Generally, they are all bad men. *Mandāḥ, sumanda-matayo*, and even they pose to be religion, they have accepted something nonsense. *Sumanda-matayo*, they, that mal, that cult is not good. They will accept that. Just like this Ramakrishna Mission they say "you can eat whatever you like, you can do whatever you like." They will accept, "oh it is very nice there is no restriction." And as soon as we say "you cannot do this, you cannot do that." "Oh, this is very difficult." That this is the Gurumaharaja is doing. **Revatīnandana:** Yes **Prabhupāda:** You can do anything, nonsense. **Revatīnandana:** Well now, now he says, "No, you shouldn't do these things." **Prabhupāda:** But he... **Revatīnandana:** But still, they do it [laughs]. **Prabhupāda:** [laughs] Because they have not the... **Revatīnandana:** They can't stop. [laughs] Father Bernard: He is very strong in the *Gītā*. **Prabhupāda:** Because he is a bad man, how he can stop? He is posing himself as God. **Devotee:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** So, he's the most rascal. First class rascal. Then how he can make others? If you are touchstone then you can make others gold. And if you are ordinary stone, how you can turn others gold? **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** That is his position. **Devotee:** This... **Revatīnandana:** There was a place, there was... **Prabhupāda:** He's dull stone. Rascal. Otherwise, how he is posing himself I am God? **Revatīnandana:** There was a place quoted in their magazine. Somebody asked him they say..."Your disciples say you are God, eh. What do you say?" He said "well you may not see me as God. But they may see something" and at that time by saying that. "But my disciples may see something different than you." He was saying actually they are seeing that I am God, they are actually correct. So, therefore, I am God. That was the direct implication of his statement. **Prabhupāda:** But how... **Revatīnandana:** Other time he says, "I am only the humble servant of God." **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** But the implication of his statement is that he is God. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Because they are seeing some fools are seeing him God. Therefore, he is God. **Revatīnandana:** [laughs] his disciples. **Prabhupāda:** His disciples, they are all perfect? **Revatīnandana:** No [laughs]. **Prabhupāda:** Then? What is the value of their seeing? **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Seeing should be done; *śāstra-cakṣusā*—one should see through the scriptures. *Śāstra-cakṣusā* that is the injunction. *Śāśtra*. Ah, Kṛṣṇa also has given reference to the *śāśtra*. *yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya > vartate kāma-kārataḥ na siddhim avāpnoti * [[bg/16/23|[Bg. 16.23] ]] Find out. *Yaḥ śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya*. So how it is to be accepted that his disciple's vision is perfect? They are ordinary men. And you are thinking yourself God by the vision of your—these rascals, disciples. You are so rascal. It must be supported by *śāśtra*, whether in the *śāśtra* you are mentioned as God. That is to be accepted. In *śāśtra* everything is mentioned there, in future there will be God's incarnation, Kalki. That is mentioned and his father's name, address and the place everything. So is your name, address, your father's name mentioned in the *śāśtra*? Then anyone can say I am God. And the people, followers they can say that these followers see me God. Therefore, I am God. Then what to speak of you maybe this can be said by anyone. So, if others say like that, then what is the difference between that God and you God? Then there are many gods. But what God is one. So many gods they are, there are already existing so what is your specific power? And what godly powers you have shown? We accept Kṛṣṇa—God because He has shown His godly power. But what you have shown? Hm. Just *śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya*. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah [chuckles]. Śrutakīrti: *Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya.* **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Śrutakīrti: *yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ teṣāṁ niṣṭhā tu kā kṛṣṇa* [[bg/17/1|[Bg. 17.1] ]] **Prabhupāda:** No that is another. *yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ * [[bg/16/23|[Bg. 16.23] ]] Devotee 2: I asked one of their disciples, what is their source of knowledge... **Prabhupāda:** Don't talk with them they are all rascals. A gang of rascals. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** You don't waste your time. Let them [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** See this is the point. They as hypocrite. I, I understand that in the Kali-yuga there is four. There are four pillars of religion: austerity, cleanliness, mercifulness, and truthfulness. Now at this time austerity is gone, cleanliness is gone, mercifulness is vanishing, there is a little truthfulness left. **Prabhupāda:** No there is no truthfulness. **Revatīnandana:** But we are appealing... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** To some sense of truth. **Prabhupāda:** Is that? *Yaḥ śāstra*. Śrutakīrti: Hm. It's y, e? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Śrutakīrti: What this y, e? **Prabhupāda:** Jara. [?] Śrutakīrti: It's just this one [?] **Prabhupāda:** Y... Śrutakīrti: Y, e? **Prabhupāda:** Y, a. Śrutakīrti: Y, a. **Prabhupāda:** H. In the sixteenth chapter? Devotee 2: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** I, I seem to recall you, you wrote that in the *Bhāgavata*. That there is a slight trace of truthfulness, and we try to appeal to that truthful tendency. **Prabhupāda:** That truthfulness is chanting of the holy name of God. That is the only truth. **Revatīnandana:** And when a person is completely... **Prabhupāda:** That is the only concession to this age. Otherwise, it is all filled up with all sinful activities. This is the only concession if you chant the holy name of the: *kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet * [[sb/12/3/51|[SB. 12.3.51] ]] He becomes liberated from all contamination. This is the only, otherwise it is an impossible... Hm? Śrutakīrti: *yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya > vartate kāma-kārataḥ > na sa siddhim avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim* [[bg/16/23|[Bg. 16.23] ]] **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Śrutakīrti: "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." **Prabhupāda:** That's it. If you do not accept the injunction of the *śāśtra*, just like the same thing. Thou shalt not kill, why you should kill? Then you'll get never perfection. *Na siddhim sāvāpnoti*—there is no question of becoming perfect Christian. *Na sukhaṁ*—and there cannot be any happiness and what to speak of going back to home, back to Godhead? This [indistinct]. I do not know why people; they do not take very seriously the injunction of the *śāśtra*. And he says that he has no basic principle of *śāśtra*. **Revatīnandana:** No, he says that the only... That, this one time he said "they are dead books." **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** One time he said, "they are dead books." **Prabhupāda:** Dead books? **Revatīnandana:** Dead books, yeah. **Prabhupāda:** So, dead books, so what is the benefit of dead books? **Revatīnandana:** He says, "therefore there is no benefit of dead books." **Prabhupāda:** Ah. **Revatīnandana:** So, therefore, you don't need these books. **Prabhupāda:** So, then you are your authority. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, so then everyone can say I am, I am my own authority. So where is the defects? How you can become God? Anyone can say "I am authority," I say "I am God." He said "I am God" then what kind of god you are? **Revatīnandana:** The men... **Prabhupāda:** Anyone can say. **Revatīnandana:** The man with the best publicity campaign. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** The man with the best publicity campaign then he becomes God [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** This is another. That is another. Publicity, by publicity there are so many rascal medicine is sold. But that is meant that is genuine medicine. No doctor will prescribe, they don't. Any medicine which is publicly advertised, no qualified doctor will prescribe that medicine. It is a law. A bona-fide registered medical practitioner will never prescribe that. **Revatīnandana:** The question of thinking about this matter of truthfulness is something like this. **Prabhupāda:** No truthfulness is there, just like we say chant Hare Kṛṣṇa *mahā-mantra*. This is truthfulness. Chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name of your God chant, we say like that. We don't say that you have to chant Kṛṣṇa. But if you are actually really have got the name of God then you chant it. That is our program, *nāmnām akāri bahudhā* [[cc/antya/20/16|[Cc. Antya 20.16] ]]. So, there are, God is unlimited there must be unlimited names also. Just like we have got thousands and thousands of names. So, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that: *harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam* [*Cc. Ādi* 17.21]. He does not see others name, but God's name. So, if you are confident that this is God's name chant it. But if you say I do not know actually whether it is God's name or somebody's name. Then how you can chant it? You have no actual knowledge of God's name, therefore take this name—Kṛṣṇa. What is the harm? God has many names this is also name, so many thousands they are acting. Why don't you take it? If you have no definite understanding of God's name. That is our request. If you have, chant that name. If you haven't got, chant this name. What is the objection? This is accepted by the *śāśtra*. By all Vedic literature, all conversant Vedic literature—*kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam* [[sb/1/3/28|[SB. 1.3.28] ]]. Practically in India you'll find millions of temples worshipping Kṛṣṇa as the supreme Lord. They are chanting Kṛṣṇa's name. Here also they are chanting, see their behaviour, their character. Everyone is, struck with wonder how these boys are nice. So why don't you accept this practical method, why do you go to theories? **Revatīnandana:** In the Bible in one place Christ says that "no man can serve two masters." He says "either he will love one and despise the other or he will despise one and love the other." **Prabhupāda:** That's, that's nice. That is nice. **Revatīnandana:** He says... **Prabhupāda:** Therefore, for the Christian they worship... **Revatīnandana:** Mammon [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** No. No, they worship Jesus Christ. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** But real Christian but he is non-different from God. **Revatīnandana:** But the, the his point is this. **Prabhupāda:** Uh. **Revatīnandana:** He says similarly he says, "no man can serve both God and mammon." **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** He says "because the more you..." **Prabhupāda:** That, that is also fact. **Revatīnandana:** "The more he loves God" he says "the more he will despise mammon..." **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** "And the more he loves mammon the more he will despise God." **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is a fact. **Revatīnandana:** Now generally in the name of being Christian they are loving mammon more and more. **Prabhupāda:** Why Christian? Everyone. **Revatīnandana:** Everyone yes but this is the point. And when you tell them that one man, he will become ashamed, I have seen it. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** But another man you see he will argue. He will try to find some other interpretation he will say well you are worshipping God, your God is not the one God. Or he will say anything else to avoid that point. That's what I mean about the difference between the two men. **Prabhupāda:** No, we say there are many gods, but here is the supreme God. We say like that. There may be many gods: *īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ* [Bs. 5.1] but the supreme God is Kṛṣṇa. That is our point, now you compare with all other gods and this God. You'll find that Kṛṣṇa is supreme. Bring one after another, all the gods or all the dogs. You'll see that these inferior to Kṛṣṇa. That we shall prove. Therefore, He is the supreme God. That is accepted by authorities by *śāśtra*. Just like Arjuna after reading *Bhagavad-gītā* he accept: *paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān * [[bg/10/12|[Bg. 10.12] ]] You are the supreme—Parambrahma. So, we have to follow Arjuna. We have to follow Vyāsa, we have to follow Nārada, Asita, Devala, the *ācārya's*, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is presenting Kṛṣṇa, He is mad after Kṛṣṇa. So why should we go to anywhere else? Here is the authority, *śāśtra*. Practical. Why should we accept something else? That is not possible. One who knows the thing, what is gold why should he accept some imitation? You accept something imitation, because you do not know. And my, just like if you take gold to an expert he rubs on the stone. Yes. So, Kṛṣṇa is accepted by the expert. By the touch stone's test. All the *ācārya's* even Śaṅkarācārya who is impersonal. He said *sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ; nārāyaṇaḥ paro 'vyaktāt*. Nārāyaṇa is beyond this material world. And that Nārāyaṇa is Kṛṣṇa. He has accepted and what to speak of other *ācārya's*. They are Vaiṣṇava, they should accept. Rāmānujācārya, Mādhavācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī latest Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all disciplic succession. So where is the doubt? There is no question of doubt. For *śāśtra* accepts, authorities accepts, there is: *sādhu śāstra guru vākya tinete kariyā aikya*. We should accept something which is accepted by saintly person by the *śāśtra* and by spiritual master. So, this is the test, the *śāśtra* says Kṛṣṇa is the supreme Lord and saintly person like Rāmānujācārya, Mādhavācārya there are many thousand, *lakhs* of Kṛṣṇa. And my Guru Mahārāja said "yes", then I have no doubt. My business is finished. Because if these three-person recommends—that is a fact. That is my position. My position is very easy I accept the three authorities *sādhu śāstra guru vākya tinete kariyā aikya*. You have to coincide the opinion of the *śāśtra*, the opinion of saintly person, the opinion of your spiritual master. The spiritual master will testify "yes" this is the position of spiritual master. And he will testify the same way *sādhu* *śāstra guru vāk... evaṁ*... This is *paramparā* system, disciplic succession. Devotee 3: The problem with the Christians seems to be that they have no concept of the spiritual master. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Devotee 3: Ahm, they seem to have no concept of the spiritual master. **Prabhupāda:** Why? Why not? They accept Jesus Christ. Devotee 3: They [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** They accept the priestly order. Why not, that is spiritual master. Devotee 3: They accept Christ is the way. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Devotee 3: They prefer that Christ is the only way and that... **Prabhupāda:** That is all right but anyone who is directing the ways of Christ, he is spiritual master. [break]... **Revatīnandana:** Many other Christian groups many of them say that they need no Pope or any such teacher about Christ. **Prabhupāda:** Because they are... They, they they don't even Bible. They are interpreting in different ways. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** So, they have gone to hell. They do not read even Bible, they can change the meaning of Bible. Now they are allowing this man to man marriage. Is it not? Father Bernard: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So, they can change anything. They can change anything. Because the idea is *vox populi*. Many priests recommend that this is all right, reject Bible take this. This is going on. They may be rascals and fools' number one but because they are many, Bible should be rejected, they should be accepted. That is the mentality, now. There is no authority of Bible now or any scripture that is the mentality of the present day. Just like this rascal he said "dead books."So, everyone is saying like that "these are all dead books." Now you manufacture your own religion, own opinion. And that is to be done by votes, maybe they are all rascals, but they still vote because there is vote it is mutual. Rascal says all the rascals they say something good then nobody calculate that this is the vote of the rascals. But because there is a number of votes they accept it. This is going on. That is stated: *śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharai, saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ * [[sb/2/3/19|[SB. 2.3.19] ]] We take it perhaps we are the only group that anything voted by rascals that conclusion is also rascal. Perhaps we are saying that, others say "no if there is a large number of votes even if it is rascaldom it should be accepted." That is going on. **Revatīnandana:** I've experienced in preaching... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** That in the society we preach to in there one class of people who are clutching these false processes. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Right, when they hear what we say they will never see it. Another class of men when they hear they become ashamed, they begin to listen. **Prabhupāda:** That is intelligent. **Revatīnandana:** Isn't, is that, isn't that—becoming ashamed isn't that a slight trace of truthfulness? **Prabhupāda:** Oh yes. They are after truth. Truthful man will accept the truth. Not his prestigious position. Just like Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya he impersonalist, he talked with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In so many jugglery of words but when he saw that he is defeated he accepted Him. Yes, You are my spiritual. That was the position for honest men. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya became impersonalist to personalist. **Revatīnandana:** And it seems to me that if the person is an atheist. **Prabhupāda:** Yes [indistinct] atheism. **Revatīnandana:** At least he has the straightforwardness to deny God. **Prabhupāda:** No atheist deny God, they are better. And these rascal they say that we accept *Vedas* and become atheist. They're more dangerous. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu **Revatīnandana:** Or Bible or Guru maharaja. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, yes. **Revatīnandana:** So that's the lowest class. **Prabhupāda:** The lowest class. **Revatīnandana:** That is the hypocrite. **Prabhupāda:** Right, most dangerous that is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *veda nā māniyā bauddha haila nāstika* [[cc/madhya/6/168|[Cc. Madhya 6.168] ]]. *Veda*, the the Buddhist they do not accept authority of *Vedas*. So therefore, we call them atheist. They are straightforward. But the Śaṅkarācārya, the impersonalists he accepted the *Vedas* but the same thing he is speaking. Buddha is speaking zero, he is saying there is no form—it is also zero. He is speaking the same thing but under the guidance under the protection of *Vedas*. Therefore, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said he is more dangerous. In the *Vedas* there is no such thing that God is impersonal. God is person. Kṛṣṇa said: *vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam* [[bg/15/15|[Bg. 15.15] ]]. Through the *Vedas* I am to be understand. He is a person, so the *Vedas* means searching out the Supreme Person. Pointing out. That is *Vedas*. So, if one takes the shelter of *Vedas* and if he says God is impersonal he is more dangerous—missguiding. Buddha said I do not care for *Vedas*, that's all right he doesn't care. Uh, so he is gentleman. **Revatīnandana:** In the *Bhagavad-gītā* Kṛṣṇa says no one can become a *yogī* unless he renounces the desire for sense gratification. [[bg/6/2|[Bg. 6.2] ]] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** Right, and this is the same as the loving God and loving mammon. It's the same, I think it is the same teaching. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** And in so many... **Prabhupāda:** This is in *Bhāgavata*, *Bhagavad-gītā* says: *yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gaten...*[[bg/6/47|[Bg. 6.47] ]]. A devotee, the devotee is the first class *yogī*, others they are... Even they are *yogīs* they are inferior class. Even the *yogīs* who have attained *aṣṭa-siddhis*—eight kinds of perfection. He is also inferior to *bhakta*-*yogī*. Because the *bhakta*-*yogī* he does not practice this yogic practice but he can show himself more than them. By *siddhis* because that is done by Kṛṣṇa. That a child has no money, but his father has money. So, if need be the father is prepared to give any amount of money. So why a *bhakta* should practice *yoga*, *aṣṭa-siddhi*? But all the *siddhis* will be shown by Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa's business. Let him depend on Kṛṣṇa. He will show all the *siddhis* wonderful things—that is *bhakta-yogīs* position. **Revatīnandana:** And bec... **Prabhupāda:** He does not practice any mystic *yoga* system, but he can show all mystic powers. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa. That is the position only. He is innocent depending on Kṛṣṇa, that's all. But Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara, *yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ* [[bg/18/78|[Bg. 18.78] ]]. Find out this verse; *yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ*. So *bhakta* is always carrying *yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ*. So, all the yogic power, mystic power is within his fingers. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. And he has, he has no difficulty with mammon. **Prabhupāda:** No. **Revatīnandana:** No difficulty [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** No. **Revatīnandana:** If he has Kṛṣṇa. That is, I tell them that is the test. That if they love mammon or if they love sense gratification... **Prabhupāda:** We are searching after a nice house in London. Kṛṣṇa says "here is a nice house take it." So, what is the use of practising a mystic power? Just depend on Kṛṣṇa. **Kiśora:** *Yatra yogeśvaraḥ*... **Prabhupāda:** *Yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ*. **Kiśora:** *yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo* **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Kiśora:** *yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ* **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Kiśora:** *tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir* **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Kiśora:** *dhruvā nītir matir mama* [[bg/18/78|[Bg. 18.78] ]] **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Kiśora:** "Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer..." **Prabhupāda:** The God and devotee. Hm. **Kiśora:** "...there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality..." **Prabhupāda:** Just see. **Kiśora:** "That is my opinion." **Prabhupāda:** [laughs] Two things must be there. Sincere devotee and Kṛṣṇa then everything is there. Take *prasādam*. Father Bernard: Thank you. **Revatīnandana:** I'm experiencing that gradually they are seeing the sincerity of the devotees. And as they see the sincerity of the devotees... **Prabhupāda:** Yes, you simply remain a sincere devotee, with Kṛṣṇa. Everything is within your grip. Because Kṛṣṇa is within your grip. Ah, *vedeṣu durllabham adurllabham ātma*-*bhakti* [Bs. 5.33], it is said. You cannot search out Kṛṣṇa in the *Vedas*, but if there is devotee, he can deliver you Kṛṣṇa, take it. That is the position of the devotee: *adurllabham ātma-bhakti*. He can deliver Kṛṣṇa—take it, I give you. This is the position of the devotee. You cannot search out Kṛṣṇa by reading *Vedas*, although the *Vedas* means to search out Kṛṣṇa, *vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ* [[bg/15/15|[Bg. 15.15] ]]. But it is not possible, it is very, very difficult but if you approach a devotee he will immediately deliver you Kṛṣṇa—take it. Therefore, it is conf... Ahm, stated by Viśvanātha: *yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasāda*. By the mercy of spiritual master, immediately you get the mercy of God. *Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi*—if you do not get the mercy of Kṛṣṇa then you are nowhere. Without the mercy of the spiritual master, then you are nowhere. **Revatīnandana:** At Cambridge... **Prabhupāda:** Ah. **Revatīnandana:** I met one big professor of Sanskrit. Who taught about the *Vedas,* and I started to talk to him about Kṛṣṇa. He said "these *Vedas* they don't mention this Kṛṣṇa. Who is this Kṛṣṇa?" **Prabhupāda:** Hm. *Atharva-veda* has he studied? That is clearly mentioned, Kṛṣṇa Devakīnandana in *Atharva-veda*. **Revatīnandana:** But it is very difficult to find it. **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Revatīnandana:** He didn't find it. **Prabhupāda:** [chuckles] **Revatīnandana:** He has read the *Vedas*; he says but he missed that point. [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** But then what about these *ācārya's*? Rāmānujācārya, Mādhavācārya, and other big, big *ācārya's*. They, if they did not find, they have given in their commentary all Vedic quotation. So you are more than them?Are you more than Rāmānujācārya, who cares for you? Rāmānujācārya is controlling the whole Indian society, Mādhavācārya. Who cares for you? So, are you to be accepted more than Rāmānujācārya? You should challenge him like that. **Devotee:** [chuckles] **Revatīnandana:** He wasn't even interested [chuckles] he said I just, "I just teach Sanskrit." **Prabhupāda:** [indistinct] I am also not interested with you, a fool like you. We are also not interested. You maybe very big man amongst some but I would consider you are rascal number one. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** Because you have got the criterion, in the *Bhagavad-gītā*. Eh? *na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ* [[bg/7/15|[Bg. 7.15] ]] One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He is in the four groups, the sinful, the rascal, the lowest of the mankind and one who has taken away his knowledge or the demon—so you are one of them. Devotee 3: [chuckles] Zaehner [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** No this is another one, there are many huge... **Prabhupāda:** So, you have to speak like that, give them challenge in person. You say there is no mention of *Vedas*, that's all right therefore you don't accept Kṛṣṇa. What about the *ācārya's*? Who is, who is controlling the whole Vedic society in India. Anyone Indian calling himself Hindu or Vedic they are following either of these *ācārya's*. So, what about them? They are fools. They are accepting Kṛṣṇa without Vedic reference? You have become a foreigner so big scholar in the *Vedas,* and they are all fools? You have to accept like that? We shall accept you are fool. What do you know? And that is mentioned in the *Vedas*. Anyone who does not accept Kṛṣṇa he is a fool number one, so you are fool number one. We cannot follow you. You should be proud like that. And this is quite reasonable. Why the *ācārya's* accept Kṛṣṇa? Does it mean that they did not know anything about *Vedas*? And Rāmānujācārya comments on the *Bhagavad-gītā*, everyone comments. Quoting all Vedic references. All Vedic reference. But the Māyāvādī says like that, but he says with reference to all Vedic, from *Upaniṣads*, all references. *Vedas* means *Upaniṣads*. And in *Atharva-veda* there is clear mention *devakīnandana sutaḥ kṛṣṇa. Gopāla-tāpanī* [*Upaniṣad*], there is clear, we have to study this Vedic literature—Jīva Gosvāmīs. You study or not study if you are fixed up in your point that will help you. That's all. But if you study more that is good. **Revatīnandana:** Sometimes they, sometimes when we are dealing with them. We are, we are thinking somehow, I will get him to come and see you. [chuckles] and then we have to be a little diplomatic. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Don't bring these rascals it is a waste of time. Better deal with them. **Revatīnandana:** I thought maybe if we brought one big rascal [chuckles] and if you defeated him... **Prabhupāda:** But he, he will not accept me. Devotee 3: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Even if he is defeated, simply it will be a waste of time. He is not Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. **Revatīnandana:** That right. **Prabhupāda:** That if he is defeated, he will become dishonest. That was the former etiquette. You are a big scholar; I am a big scholar we are talking—one who is defeated he shall become his disciple. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** Surrender to him. Then if you don't surrender if you are defeated then why shall I waste my time. Even I defeat you and if you do not become my disciple, my follower—then why shall I waste my time? Therefore, one such rascal came to Rūpa Gosvāmī and he wanted to talk with him. That I want to talk with you about *śāśtras*. "So, I, I have defeated so many scholars." "So, what do you want?" "I want to defeat you." Ah, "so all right you defeat me." "Oh no give me it in writing." "Yes, I am giving that." **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** "Yes, this man has defeated me. Take it." **Revatīnandana:** Now... **Prabhupāda:** "And go away." [laughter] He wanted to avoid this rascal. And why shall I waste my time? Let him take that paper. Devotee 3: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, I'm defeated. **Revatīnandana:** What, what about the Staal correspondence? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** This, in the Staal correspondence he never accepted defeat. **Prabhupāda:** He has said, why he has become silent? That is defeat. Devotee 3: Yeah **Revatīnandana:** Ah. **Prabhupāda:** At last, he could not reply. That is defeat. **Revatīnandana:** Ah. I thought if... **Prabhupāda:** *Maunaṁ sammati lakṣaṇam*—when you become silent that means you have accepted. You may say that I am not defeated, but you are defeated. Śyāmasundara: And his student wrote a book about it. **Prabhupāda:** *Maunaṁ sammati lakṣaṇam*. As soon as we become silent then you are defeated. Or you accept my, what I say. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. So, like last, last Friday night we went to the city of Bristol because this big. The biggest, the biggest professor of oriental philosophy in Oxford was speaking there, about mysticism. So, we went and listened to his talk. And his thesis was that the *Bhagavad-gītā* is amoral because it is voidist [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** That anyone can say, any envious person can say like that. But we have to test whether his statement is confirmed by the *ācārya's*. Otherwise, any insane man can say like that. As ah, we have to accept that statement. *Ācāryavān puruṣo veda* [*Chāndogya* *Upaniṣad*, 6.14.2]—a man is in knowledge who follows the *ācārya's*. But he, he is speaking against the *ācārya's*. Big big *ācārya's*, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Mādhava, so he is fool himself. If I defy all big men and I want to establish my theory, then I am a fool number one. And only the fools will hear him. **Revatīnandana:** Hmh. **Prabhupāda:** Why did you not say, what about the *ācārya's*? **Revatīnandana:** Well, he said that...This is the point [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Ved... Is it Vyāsadeva has written *Bhāgavata* about Kṛṣṇa... **Revatīnandana:** This is the point that... **Prabhupāda:** Does it mean that he is writing something about somebody immoral and waste his time. In so learned scholarship *Bhāgavata*? **Revatīnandana:** See what I was going to do, I was going to challenge him on the point that... **Prabhupāda:** No no there is no use of challenging because they are rascal number one. Don't waste their time... Waste your time. They will never be converted. **Revatīnandana:** But you see, it is like this. In, in, just like in the *Gītā* Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna because you are a devotee... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** Therefore, you can understand this. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** I was saying "now who are you to speak on the *Bhagavad-gītā* when you are not a devotee?" **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** When you are not in disciplic succession. **Prabhupāda:** But he's not devotee, he is killing [sic] himself. That I am not a devotee. Your business, why shall I hear you? You're not a devotee, you cannot give any opinion on the *Śrīmad*-*Bhagavad-gītā* because you are a rascal. **Revatīnandana:** Ah. **Prabhupāda:** That will be our statement. **Revatīnandana:** But I wanted somehow, I wanted to get him here to have you defeat him...[indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Why shall I waste time with this rascal? **Revatīnandana:** Be... because... **Prabhupāda:** Even if he is defeated... Why don't you understand the point? **Revatīnandana:** But if it is on the tape, if it is on the tape, and if you defeat him and then people read this... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** That here is Svāmī Bhaktivedanta saying, and here is Zaehner saying. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** And you are, in every place he is appearing fool. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right, that maybe...¶ **Revatīnandana:** I thought that might be valuable. Śyāmasundara: Very good move. **Prabhupāda:** He, it is simply a waste of time. Why shall I... He's a drunkard, he's a meat eater... **Revatīnandana:** So that's, after he finished, he lit a cigarette and headed for the bar. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** He is a sinful number one. Why shall I talk with him? And he is deliberate enemy of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee 3: Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, so these are the Hiraṇyakaśipu, so why a devotee should talk with Hiraṇyakaśipu? **Revatīnandana:** Ah, thank you. Now I mean, that I was just misunderstanding our policy. **Prabhupāda:** You should not waste time, let us do our own business, that's all. We have no business to defeat this rascal or that rascal. But, if need be, there is we shall do that but generally you should avoid their company. **Revatīnandana:** Ah. **Prabhupāda:** *Upekṣā. Upekṣā*, it is called—*upekṣā*. *Prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā* [[cc/madhya/22/73|[Cc. Madhya 22.73] ]]. For a preacher these four things should be done. God's, the, the supreme lovable object. To friend, make friendship with devotees. To show mercy to the innocent people and to avoid these rascals, who are envious. *Dviṣatsu, dviṣat* means "envious of Kṛṣṇa."So, he is an envious, so he should be rejected. Don't waste time. He's telling of this version that Kṛṣṇa was immoral will not carry any effect. **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Will not carry any effect. He is not so great that as soon as he says Kṛṣṇa is immoral, immediately Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is stopped. Therefore, he hasn't got, let him tell. A madman: *pāgale ki nā bole, chāgale ki nā khāya*. It is said that what a madman does not speak—all nonsense. And what a goat does not eat? So, his example is never taken into consideration. Suppose he has accepted he is defeated; do you mean to say everyone will become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Does it mean? Will it be? **Revatīnandana:** No. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Then why shall I waste my time? **Revatīnandana:** Hm. Now they have also printed the, in his, in a newspaper. A summary of his speech. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. So why don't you protest? **Revatīnandana:** Should I protest it in writing? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, why not? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's public newspaper. **Prabhupāda:** Write to the newspaper that according to *Bhagavad-gītā*, he is a rascal. And quote the *śloka*. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** So, rascal may say anything, but you are also so rascal that you have published. So kindly publish this also. **Devotees:** [laughter] **Prabhupāda:** And quote *Bhagavad-gītā*, *na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ * [[bg/7/15|[Bg. 7.15] ]] Eh? Ah, then rejoin: *mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā * [[bg/9/11|[Bg. 9.11] ]] They deride. Vyāsadeva is [indistinct]. *Om namo bhagavate vāsudevāya*, and these rascal drunkards, smoker he is getting all moral. So, we will have to accept Vyāsadeva or this rascal? Why should we waste, so you can protest against these. The big, big stalwart saintly person they have accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The *śāśtra* has accepted and India, all Hindus at least they worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. The foundation thousands and millions of temples in each home. So, does it mean they will stop doing this by hearing this rascal? **Devotees:** [chuckle] Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Do you think like that. So, what is the use of publishing this news, wasting your paper? Do you think they will be convinced by this rascal statement? Oh, Kṛṣṇa is immoral therefore let us give up Kṛṣṇa from this day. What authority he has got? Any madman can say anything. Eh? And if I say here "oh the Queen is a prostitute." **Devotees:** [chuckle] **Prabhupāda:** I can say, who checks me? But will that be carried for public opinion? I can say, will the public opinion be changed in that way? **Devotee:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** And they will give up Queen's respect? So, all this is a madman. Unfortunately, such class of men are on the guidance of the people. *Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās* [[sb/7/5/31|[SB. 7.5.31] ]]—the blind man is leading other blind men. That is the defect. So, you make your propaganda, and you can protest, you can write also. As he has said in his place, something. You can also speak so many harsh words, cruel words against him. Who checks it? You say on the authority of *Bhagavad-gītā* that you are rascal, you are most sinful, you are the lowest of the mankind. You say. *Śaṭhe śāṭhyam samācaret* [*Nīti Śāstra*]. You also say, you are *mūḍhā,* and quote *Bhagavad-gītā*. That is your business. Let him speak, firstly you speak more harshly. Why don't you speak? You also say in a big meeting that he is rascal number one. He is lowest of the mankind, declare like this. Then let him go to the court. **Devotees:** [chuckle] Devotee 3: Then he will answer us? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Devotee 3: Now involved. **Devotees:** [chuckle] **Prabhupāda:** You also say, tit for tat. **Devotees:** [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Oh! Come on, come on, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Come on. So, you are all happy in Rome? Dhanañjaya: It's a very wonderful city, Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, thank you. So, what is the progress? Dhanañjaya: We brought back three devotees with us. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: And they are now in the Paris Temple. Two nice Italian boys and a Swiss boy. **Prabhupāda:** Very good. Dhanañjaya: And we met with one Priest called Monsieur Ronsano[?] Who is in the non-Christian department of the Vatican. And he has said it is very, very easy to arrange a meeting with the Pope. And he knows... I have already talked to Ronsano who knows about our movement in India. He was there several months ago, and he saw one of our Pandels in Bombay. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, yes. Dhanañjaya: And the devotees in Delhi. So, he said that simply we send, first of all, an official letter to one of the Pope's Cardinals that you would like to see him in the Vatican. And then I will go and make the arrangements that you have nice quarters in the Vatican City. They have very nice parks... **Prabhupāda:** No, I think we wrote one sometime. Dhanañjaya: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** But I received no reply. Śyāmasundara: We didn't send through official channels. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Śyāmasundara: That was the problem. This way, he knows the man we can send it... **Prabhupāda:** So, what is the difference between your writing and my writing? Dhanañjaya: Well, the... **Prabhupāda:** You can say that our... Dhanañjaya: [indistinct] Śyāmasundara: He knows the man to take the letter too. **Prabhupāda:** No, I am fearing, if they still do not reply that is insult. Dhanañjaya: If the personal secretary writes on behalf of your Grace. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that you can change. Dhanañjaya: Then it goes to the Cardinal. There is one Cardinal in the Vatican. **Prabhupāda:** You make letter and take it. Any one of us will sign as a personal secretary. Dhanañjaya: Yes. But he said that the Pope would be more than pleased to welcome you. **Prabhupāda:** That's alright, he should. But once I wrote but there was no reply. You know that? Dhanañjaya: Yes. From Montreal. **Prabhupāda:** Yes.That letter was published in our Back to Godhead. Śyāmasundara: [indistinct] proper channel. **Revatīnandana:** Recently there was that picture of the Pope with that Swami form New York, Satchidananda Swami. Something like that. And they are like this, smiling. Is this so important he will sit with anybody. Like this... One of these Swamis from New York. They were sitting together with the Pope. They are both smiling like this, and it seems very meaningless. Śyāmasundara: Anyway, you stop in Rome sometime, and he may see you. Dhanañjaya: The weather is also very wonderful. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: It is very hot there and dry. **Prabhupāda:** What is the temperature? Dhanañjaya: One hundred degrees. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Dhanañjaya: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Very nice. **Devotee:** Also, [indistinct] in the Catholic... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Best thing that you make arrangement. I shall go there and speak generally. In the meantime, the secretary may write. But once, he did not reply. Dhanañjaya: But now I think this movement is known worldwide is more, are, known about society. Śyāmasundara: On a week from this Wednesday, Lord Brockway is coming here with his wife in the evening for dinner. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Śyāmasundara: And he will stay the whole evening. He is very, very nice. He is 85... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Śyāmasundara: And vegetarian. **Prabhupāda:** Oh! Śyāmasundara: Since childhood. Birth. In Calcutta, he was born. **Prabhupāda:** Lord Brockway? Śyāmasundara: Yes, and he lived in Berhampur most of his early days. **Prabhupāda:** Berhampur. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Oh! Śyāmasundara: And now he is fit, walking out on the ground in the House of Lord, 85 years old. Very nice man. **Prabhupāda:** Englishmen are generally healthy. That is our impression. Śyāmasundara: And no meat he said he never had any meat. French Devotee: He plays tennis [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** The plays tennis? Śyāmasundara: No, he doesn't [several talking] **Devotee:** Most of the English people [indistinct] lived in Calcutta. **Prabhupāda:** Old man. It is very difficult to [indistinct] **Devotees:** [chuckle] Śyāmasundara: So, then he gave us a pass into the House of Lords, and we sat and watched the proceedings for some time. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Śyāmasundara: A very nice high-class man. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, Lord family, aristocratic family. Śyāmasundara: And there I saw George over at Dennis's office. They were having business meetings, so he began to talk about the House of Lords. And and George has got a plan to invite the Prince Charles to his home as soon as possible and talk. **Prabhupāda:** How long it takes for Rome to here? By plane. Dhanañjaya: About an hour and a half, two hours. That's all. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: Very good services between London and Rome. Śyāmasundara: The most beautiful city in Europe. Dhanañjaya: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** The most beautiful city. Śyāmasundara: Wonderful. Old civilization. Dhanañjaya: One of the oldest histories in Europe. Śyāmasundara: [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** So, what is our activities there? At the present moment. Dhanañjaya: Well, I was in Rome with Guru-Gouranga. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: For five days and we were staying in a Catholic hostel, and we were making preparations to become an Association. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Dhanañjaya: Incorporated in Italy. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: And we have met with a, a nice lawyer he is 24 years old. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Dhanañjaya: And very willing, very willing to make us into an incorporated society. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Dhanañjaya: So as soon as I go back with some Italian devotees. There are already seven Italian devotees in Paris. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Dhanañjaya: Ah, then we can make a very nice center there, I'm sure. **Prabhupāda:** That's nice, you do that first of all. Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have many friends already... **Prabhupāda:** Seeing the Pope is not very important. Our preaching is more important. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Every week one coachload of Italian tourists comes to Bury Place temple. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Śyāmasundara: As part of their tour. They are very pious. **Prabhupāda:** There are many nice men all over the world. So, our preaching should pick up them. Kicking out of these Jainsa, what is that? **Revatīnandana:** Zaehner [chuckles]. Devotee 4: Zaehner [indistinct] Dhanañjaya: We met with one Merkasa [Merkava, Jewish mystics], she runs a macrobiotic center in Rome. And she has been vegetarian for 15 years, she has a son who is vegetarian. **Prabhupāda:** Vegetarians will ah, very quickly understand. Dhanañjaya: Yes, yes. Yes, and she can understand philosophy. **Prabhupāda:** Non-vegetarians cannot understand what is God. Dhanañjaya: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** It is not possible. Dhanañjaya: Yes. She appreciated very much the *Bhāgavata*m. **Prabhupāda:** This, this is another secret. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** *Vinā paśughnāt*, that is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* [10.1.4]. Those who are animal killers they cannot understand. It is not possible. Their brain is so dull, that it is impossible for them to understand God. Therefore, this is the first step, you you'll find. You make a statistic and study all the non-vegetarians. They cannot have any idea... **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** Of God. Hundreds and thousands you test. It will be they have no idea. Even big, big men, yes they have no clear idea of what is God. They cannot. That is not possible. At least the vegetarianism helps one to understand God. Devotee 4: In Canada they cut down animal slaughter by 20%. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Devotee 4: In Canada. **Prabhupāda:** Why 20%, mercy. **Revatīnandana:** I think that is some economic reason. Devotee 4: Well [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** That is an economic reason; that's not pious [chuckles]. **Prabhupāda:** Just like in India they make compromise with the government. That cow's which is giving milk will not be slaughtered. **Devotees:** [chuckle] **Prabhupāda:** That is also economic. All rascals. Dhanañjaya: In Italy—even today they are using the cows and the bulls to pull the carts just like in India. I saw a big, big white cows, very strong and very broad pulling carts in the countryside. **Prabhupāda:** And after that they are killing? Dhanañjaya: No. **Devotees:** [laughter] **Prabhupāda:** After taking the milk, after engaging him to work. They kill. Devotee 3: Sal... **Prabhupāda:** This is civilization. **Revatīnandana:** Salamis. Devotee 3: Salamis or... **Prabhupāda:** If you work for, hard for me and if you give me food and then I kill you. What is moralist? Ask this rascal [Zaehner] that you are more moralist than Kṛṣṇa? By killing cows. Who is giving you milk you're killing your mother, so you are more moralist? **Revatīnandana:** No, the basic principle that we are doing as far as I understand this. We are trying to appeal to the section of society that may understand. And for the rascals we don't care so much. Nor for any tricks or gimmicks. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, anyone who is really inquisitive—we can talk. But if we know that he is a rascal number one. Why should we waste our time? **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. Just like... **Prabhupāda:** You can talk many other people those who are actually inquisitive. They are searching after, then our labor is fruitful. Devotee 3: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** But if I know this man is rascal number one, jealous, envious. Why should we waste our time? **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** If you did not know that is different thing. But if we know that he is purposefully jealous, why should we talk with him? **Revatīnandana:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** And what benefit will be there? Suppose if he is defeated, what benefit we get? **Revatīnandana:** Hm. That's... **Prabhupāda:** So why should we waste our valuable time? Better chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, utilize. **Revatīnandana:** Just like last night we had a, we took a hall in the city of Brighton. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** Which is on the southern coast. And all weeks, five of the boys, Kiśora, four of the boys stayed there, they made publicity. We passed out papers and things. And about... We charged a little bit, just enough to keep the rascals out. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Yes. **Revatīnandana:** And the interested people they immediately they give a little bit and then they come. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** So, we had a hundred guests at the program. About a hundred and the whole thing was very nice. **Prabhupāda:** Just see, you charge something. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** That will admit selected persons—not these rascals. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. They chanted; they loved the *prasādam*. **Prabhupāda:** The innocent, to the innocent you should be very much, we should devote our time for them. *Kṛpa*—this is preaching. Preaching is *kṛpa*. Mercy. Not my mercy but God's mercy. We are delivering that's all like a peon. It is mercy. Just like a peon brings some money, money order, that is not his money. Somebody has sent and delivering. The man who is taking he is also, feels obliged "oh peon you have brought it in right time." But he is not paying. Similarly, our business is servant of God, the mercy of God we are delivering that's all. But I am insignificant, what mercy I have got I cannot say but by Kṛṣṇa's mercy I can deliver. Dhanañjaya: Hm. And must avoid being preponderant. **Prabhupāda:** Yes that, that is our business. Dhanañjaya: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** So, one who is jealous of Kṛṣṇa, why should we pay him... Ask him so take the mercy. **Revatīnandana:** At the end of that Friday night... **Prabhupāda:** That is *aparādha*. **Revatīnandana:** That Professor... **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Revatīnandana:** At the end I, I knew... **Prabhupāda:** Out of 10 *aparādha's*—offences. Anyone who is not willing to talk with him about Kṛṣṇa consciousness is *aparādha*. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Is offence. **Revatīnandana:** When I was with that Professor, I knew I should have stood up and challenged him on the spot. At the end of his talk... **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that was your duty. **Revatīnandana:** But I didn't do it because I thought. I was thinking so many things, if we can get him to come here, like that. I shouldn't have done it; I should have challenged him on the spot. **Prabhupāda:** No immediately challenge. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** This is the challenge, that you are talking of Kṛṣṇa. What authority you have? **Revatīnandana:** I, I knew [chuckles] how to challenge him but I didn't do it, you know because I thought I... **Prabhupāda:** You are not authorized. **Revatīnandana:** I would something else instead... **Prabhupāda:** You are outsider. **Revatīnandana:** I would get him this and that. **Prabhupāda:** You cannot talk of Kṛṣṇa. **Revatīnandana:** That's right. **Prabhupāda:** Nobody will accept your statement. You are, why you are wasting your time in this way? And becoming sinful more. You are already sinful we can understand but you will become more sinful. But another thing is that Kṛṣṇa is immoralist but there are many other immoralist. Why you're mentioning Kṛṣṇa? Śyāmasundara: [Laughs] **Prabhupāda:** So, He's famous immoralist. **Devotees:** [Chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** You're not so famous. **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Prabhupāda:** You are not so famous. Logical argument. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** And nobody knows you, but I can give you statistic. Millions of people know Kṛṣṇa. So, what is your value? **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Prabhupāda:** And Kṛṣṇa says you are rascal. So whose vote will be taken? **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Prabhupāda:** [laughs] Use these words. [laughter] Kṛṣṇa says that you are rascal. As you are saying Kṛṣṇa is immoral and Kṛṣṇa says you are rascal and lowest of the mankind. So, whose vote will be taken Kṛṣṇa's or yours? Kṛṣṇa is so famous that even an envious person like you, you are also speaking of Kṛṣṇa. But who speaks about you? **Devotees:** [Laughter]. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. Dhanañjaya: Sometimes... **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa's name is in the dictionary. Is your name in the dictionary? **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Prabhupāda:** So, what you are? **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Revatīnandana:** But at these programs that, that community we began to attracts, a certain community. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** It's a small community, but it, little by little it will grow. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** And they are very pleased with our program when they meet it. **Prabhupāda:** No, we, we have to select right persons. Moons not the stars. **Devotee:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** We have to select. *Ekaś candras tamo hanti* [*Niti-Śāstra* 4.6]. If we can select one person—right. Like moon, oh that is sufficient, it will illuminate. Not this thousands and millions of stars. What is the value of these stars? They are twinkling and *bwwwwhu*, [makes a buzzing sound] that's all. And if there is one moon ahhh... **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** The whole world is illuminated. So, we, our position should be like that to find out the moon, not the millions of stars. Just like he has got so many followers, but what is the value of it? None of his followers can talk with our followers. I think even in the Guru maharaja cannot talk with our one follower. **Revatīnandana:** That's right. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So, what is the value? Devotee 2: Hm. **Revatīnandana:** I think in this country, there are many moons. **Prabhupāda:** Oh yes. **Revatīnandana:** Many. **Prabhupāda:** Intelligent [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** More than anywhere I've seen. **Prabhupāda:** Western people there is intelligent. But they have not been guided properly otherwise they are intelligent. They are coming from Aryan families, *kṣatriya* family. **Revatīnandana:** Hmh. **Prabhupāda:** So, they are intelligent. Śyāmasundara: Just watching the proceedings of the House of Lords how intelligently every problem is presented and discussed and then they pass. Compromise, find some solution. Very oh, I've never seen, high, such high brains. And for hundreds of years the same house is going on like that. No disturbance. **Revatīnandana:** Unfortunately, it is not the real power. Śyāmasundara: Well, you just put the right contents into that situation, and oh, they can all become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The whole world. **Revatīnandana:** It's the House of Commons that has the public gallery. **Prabhupāda:** One difficulty, one difficulty is that they are not ending their sinful activities. They sanction, that is going on, just like drinking wine. It is sinful. But they take it, what is sinful? We do, so what is that drinking? So illicit sex, they consider it as sinful, eating meat they don't consider it sinful, that's the defect. **Revatīnandana:** They caught two big men from the House of Lords recently going to prostitutes. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Just see. **Devotee:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** It was all over the newspapers. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** They are reluctant to give up this sinful life. Therefore, however cultured they may be... Śyāmasundara: One of the items discussed today was the pig production development amendment. **Prabhupāda:** What is that? Śyāmasundara: Killing[indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** [indistinct] pig production? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. The laws governing pig production. **Revatīnandana:** Oh yeah. They talk about the animals just like pounds of wheat or pieces of metal. In the sanest language, it's an economic matter. How much was slaughtered this month as opposed to last month. Just completely mechanical. Completely brutal. Śyāmasundara: There was a bill presented by Zetland. **Prabhupāda:** Lord Zetland? Śyāmasundara: Ah, I didn't... It must be Lord Zetland [indistinct]. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, Lord family. That means that former Zetland's son. Śyāmasundara: Ah must be. Maybe we should contact him. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Śyāmasundara: Contact his... **Prabhupāda:** He was, his father was Governor, I think. Śyāmasundara: This Brockway, Lord Brockway says that he will introduce us to all the Lord's there who are favorable to our kind of lifestyle. He was there as an introduction. **Prabhupāda:** Zetland introduced this bill? How to kill pigs. Śyāmasundara: No not the pig bill. It was something about housing. **Prabhupāda:** His father was a good philosopher. Śyāmasundara: But they all must be very intelligent men, a few highly educated. **Prabhupāda:** But Zetland is in Scotland? [Another name for Shetland] Śyāmasundara: I don't know, I can't. Zetland? Father Bernard: [indistinct] Dhanañjaya: Well, there is a Shetland. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Dhanañjaya: The Orkneys and Shetland. [All talking] Śyāmasundara: It's Zetland, Z, E, T, O, LAND. **Prabhupāda:** There is no place? Dhanañjaya: Is it a Scottish family? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Dhanañjaya: Zetland. **Revatīnandana:** It might not be a place, it might be just a name. [All talking]... It's a place? Śyāmasundara: I've seen it on a map, I think it's in north of, north-east of London in that corner. I've seen it once. **Prabhupāda:** Zetland. Śyāmasundara: Zetland, small it sticks out into the... [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** He may be Scotsman, but he resided here. And became Lord of Zetland. Śyāmasundara: Also, they were discussing wars and insurance and aircraft. **Prabhupāda:** What are they? Śyāmasundara: I'll, I'll give you this to read. **Prabhupāda:** No, no I have no time. **Devotees:** [Laughter] Śyāmasundara: It's very involved. **Prabhupāda:** [chuckles] I cannot waste my time, [indistinct]. I've have got this dictaphone, I've got this [indistinct] [laughter] left hand writer [?] That's all. When I stop this, I work here, when I stop this, I work there. [laughter] That is my business. [break] **Prabhupāda:** If you want me to go there for one or two days I can go. Śyāmasundara: I think later when the weather gets a little cooler here. Cold. Then it will be nice to go there. **Prabhupāda:** Oh.Otherwise, it is very hot. Śyāmasundara: No, I say when the weather here is cold. Then it's warmer, better there. **Prabhupāda:** It is already warm. Dhanañjaya: Yes, in Rome, the weather is very similar to Los Angeles. **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: It is very similar to Los Angeles, the weather. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Dhanañjaya: It never gets cold. In wintertime maybe 60°. Never below 60° in winter. So just now, it is hot up until September-October. **Prabhupāda:** The temperature is 100. Dhanañjaya: 100, between 80 and 100. Śyāmasundara: September-October is a good time to leave here as well because it gets cold here. **Prabhupāda:** September-October, it is cold here? **Revatīnandana:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: It starts to get frosty sometimes. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** September, yes. Father Bernard: It starts to get cold in September. Śyāmasundara: It's never extremely cold [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** But November there is snow. Śyāmasundara: Only, only three or four times a year a little snow. Not much—mild. **Revatīnandana:** Well sometimes [indistinct] sometimes it gets pretty cold. When I arrived here I came from Bombay it was on Christmas Day. When I left Bombay about 80°. I got off and I got to my room in London and there was icicles 5 inches long on the windows. Ice was hanging [laughs]. Śyāmasundara: But you were here for a few months and only one time snow. **Prabhupāda:** No no. I, when I was in that ah... Devotee 2: Ascot. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, hotel what is that? [All talking] Śyāmasundara: Baker Street. **Prabhupāda:** Baker Street. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, from my window I was seeing every day snowfall. [laughter] [All talking] **Revatīnandana:** Last winter was mild here, but the winter before wasn't mild. It was quite cold. **Prabhupāda:** For so many days. Dhanañjaya: It never snows in Rome. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Dhanañjaya: It is never known to snow in Rome. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Dhanañjaya: Never. [laughter] **Revatīnandana:** He hasn't even got a place, and he is already inviting you. [laughter] **Prabhupāda:** So, if you like I can go. Devotee 3: Near the airport. Dhanañjaya: And there is some very nice houses in Rome also. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Dhanañjaya: Very nice houses. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Dhanañjaya: All marble. Marble floors [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Italy is famous for marble. Dhanañjaya: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** The whole air ah, airport station is marble, I have seen. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Airport? **Prabhupāda:** Athens, Athens. [pronounces A-thens] Śyāmasundara: Athens oh. Dhanañjaya: Also, in Rome also. **Prabhupāda:** Athens also near Rome. Dhanañjaya: In Greece yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So, I saw the whole airport is covered in marble. Big, big marble so thick Dhanañjaya: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. They also chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes, some young men as soon as they saw us—Hare Kṛṣṇa! They chanted. [laughter]. **Revatīnandana:** Where was it? **Prabhupāda:** Athens. **Revatīnandana:** Athens. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: We stopped there on the way to India. **Revatīnandana:** Hmh. **Prabhupāda:** You know that. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I was... **Prabhupāda:** You were with me. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: I was surprised [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** That was the highest culture. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** That was the highest culture we have seen on this side. **Prabhupāda:** Greece. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Greece is still the original history. Śyāmasundara: But when you discussed their style and Socrates. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Śyāmasundara: When you discussed, when we discussed their style of Socrates, Plato before you make it [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** But ah, Socrates is the best philosopher amongst the Western. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah, kind of. **Prabhupāda:** He accepted immortality of the soul. Śyāmasundara: Only for humans. **Prabhupāda:** Only for the humans? Śyāmasundara: And not for animals. **Prabhupāda:** Oh! **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** But what is your opinion, that animal has no soul? Father Bernard: The animal has no soul, no. **Prabhupāda:** You agree to that? Why? Father Bernard: That's how we have all been taught. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Father Bernard: An animal has no soul. **Prabhupāda:** Now you have been told, but what is your personal opinion? Father Bernard: I suppose. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Father Bernard: I don't really know, I, I suppose I don't think they have a soul. Because they are lower than... **Prabhupāda:** No. Father Bernard: The human culture. **Prabhupāda:** Why, how do you conclude that animal has no soul? What is your reason? Father Bernard: Well, I suppose we just because the church is teaching, which is all I've ever known. I think. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Church teaching... Father Bernard: But the Church is teaching... **Prabhupāda:** But there is philosophy and science. So, first of all if there is soul what is the symptoms of possessing the soul? Father Bernard: Soul is the... **Prabhupāda:** Just like this table has no soul. Father Bernard: That's right, yeah, that's right. **Prabhupāda:** But I have soul. So, what is the difference between this table and myself so that I have got soul, and he hasn't got soul? Father Bernard: It's the part of you that goes back to God. The body is only a casing, a box... **Prabhupāda:** No no... Father Bernard: To held's something... **Prabhupāda:** Just to make a scientific study... Father Bernard: [indistinct] is life. And that is... **Prabhupāda:** What is the difference between this table and myself? Father Bernard: You are a created creature by God, this is something made by man. **Prabhupāda:** Only that is the difference? Father Bernard: You are created by God in His image. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Father Bernard: The image of God, this is just... **Prabhupāda:** This is also created by God; can you create iron? Can you create iron? Then? This is created by God. Can you... this glass means, this is silica? Can you create silica? So how you can say that it is created... Man has simply transformed. But the creation is of God. You find iron from within the earth. So, have you created that? Father Bernard: No. **Prabhupāda:** Then why do you say that is created by man? It is created by God. If that is your criterion that what is created by God, it has got soul. Then, everything is created by God. That is the statement in the *Bhagavad-gītā*. *ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate * [[bg/10/8|[Bg. 10.8] ]] *janmādy asya yataḥ* [*Vedānta Sūtra* 1.1.2] The *Vedānta*. Everything is created by God. *Bhagavad-gītā* says; *bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca * [[bg/7/4|[Bg. 7.4] ]] It is My energy. How you can say it is not created by God? Nothing is created except by God's energy, anything you take. That is perfect vision. So, if that is your definition because it is not created by God. Then you are mistaken, everything is created by God. Now the iron is created by God and the silica is created by God and if you say that in this thread I have created. All right somebody has, man has created. The man's intelligence, who has created? God has created. So therefore, if my intelligence is created by God and by my intelligence I've created this table then originally it is God's creation. How you can say it is man's creation? And the scientists also say that we cannot create we can simply transform. The iron was there, and I have simply transformed the iron into a pipe shape that is all. I did not create the iron, so you cannot say that it is not God's creation. It is God's creation. Everything. Devotee 2: What about animals then? **Prabhupāda:** Everything is God's creation. Huh. Kṛṣṇa says: *sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya > sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ ahaṁ tāsāṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā * [[bg/14/4|[Bg. 14.4] ]] I am the father of all living entities in any form. *Sarva-yoniṣu—*in any species of life. Devotee 2: Living entities? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. He is the father, *bīja—*seed giving father. He is. That means imperfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: So, if an animal is living and I am living... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: And I have a soul but he doesn't have soul... **Prabhupāda:** Why he has not soul? He has soul, you say because you have no sufficient knowledge. Now you have to study how you say that it has no soul? What is your, what is called? Prirman [sic] to prove that it has no soul. Ah, that means animal. Devotee 2: Premises? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Devotee 2: He can't ah, think like me. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Why he cannot think? Devotee 2: Perhaps it is his [?]... **Prabhupāda:** Why he cannot think? Why? When you take him to the slaughterhouse, he cries. Why he cannot think? He cries just like man. If you take a man and, and you take him to the slaughter. He also protests and cries and he also does that. How do you say that he has no soul? Imperfect knowledge that is the difficulty rascals and fools with imperfect knowledge they become teacher. That is the defect of the modern... They have no perfect knowledge. Devotee 2: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** First of all, you, you were saying that this animal has no soul. The man has soul, how you are distinguishing? How you are distinguish? Devotee 2: [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Soul, soul presence of soul means consciousness. Just like if I pinch my body, there is pain—the consciousness. Similarly, if you pinch any animal, he has also the same consciousness. Devotee 2: Hm. **Prabhupāda:** So that is the proof of presence of soul. When the soul is not there, there will be no more consciousness. Therefore, consciousness is the proof of the presence of soul. This is scientific. So, the animals have consciousness and we have got consciousness. Besides that—living, animal—living. He also eats, you also eat. He also sleeps, you also sleep. The animal has sex life, you have got sex life. The animal is also afraid from the enemy, you are also afraid of the enemy. So where is difference in your dealing? Śyāmasundara: I wonder if it says in the Bible anywhere that the animals have no soul? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is, that means... **Revatīnandana:** It doesn't say that. **Prabhupāda:** It means that Bible is not authorized. **Revatīnandana:** It doesn't say that. Śyāmasundara: It doesn't say it. **Prabhupāda:** Oh then... Śyāmasundara: I think, I think they have interpreted it. Devotee 3: It says in one place that [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** That was Aquinas's, Aquinas was head of it. Śyāmasundara: Aristotle started it. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah. Maybe Aristotle started it, but Aquinas was the Christian who established, who tried to establish that only the human being has a soul. Śyāmasundara: Saint Augustine said it before Aquinas, I think. **Prabhupāda:** No. [?] **Revatīnandana:** I don't... I heard that it credited to... I mean, I don't know, one or the other. Śyāmasundara: Saint Thomas Aquinas. **Revatīnandana:** But they have an ulterior motive, they were already slaughtering [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** It is all imperfect knowledge. That is the evolution. The evolution of the soul—transmigration of the soul. But they do not know it. They are thinking that the body is evolving like it. Devotee 3: I don't think so. **Prabhupāda:** Imperfect knowledge. Simply... Śyāmasundara: I don't think Jesus ever said you know animal has no soul. **Prabhupāda:** Never. I, I so far, I have... Śyāmasundara: No. **Prabhupāda:** So why do they say like that? Dhanañjaya: All these scholars... **Revatīnandana:** Because they are killing the animals. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** Because they are slaughtering the animals. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore, they are so sinful that it is very difficult to convince them. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** They are sinful, simply sinful. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. If the animal has no soul, then I can kill the animal. Therefore, I want to prove that the animal has no soul. Even though it is foolishness. **Prabhupāda:** That is their point. Śyāmasundara: Jesus said "though shalt not kill." **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** We talked to a man for a long time. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** Complete so long it takes. **Prabhupāda:** The animal has got soul. Your argument is not very strong that he is not created by man, and what you? Animal, animal is not created by God? Father Bernard: Well, an animal is created by God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, but? Father Bernard: But he is a lower form of humanity, and he has no soul. **Prabhupāda:** Well lower form, your child is also lower form of humanity does it mean that he has had no soul? Father Bernard: Sorry? **Prabhupāda:** Your child. **Revatīnandana:** A child, a baby. **Prabhupāda:** A child, a baby. Father Bernard: Has a soul made in his form. **Prabhupāda:** But he is in lower form of body. If you cut his throat, he'll not protest. Father Bernard: No. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, he does not know what is cutting my throat. **Revatīnandana:** Yeah, the baby... **Prabhupāda:** Does it mean that he has no soul? **Revatīnandana:** No, the baby is less conscious than a cow. Father Bernard: He is. **Revatīnandana:** Less conscious than a cow. Father Bernard: Yes. I think so. **Revatīnandana:** So therefore, I could easily kill the baby, less than the cow. Father Bernard: That's right. **Revatīnandana:** So why not kill the baby also? Do you see? Father Bernard: I do, I see yes. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, you see it properly. **Revatīnandana:** This is the problem when, when, when the people they hear some teaching. When they hear some teaching but there is no philosophy then they become doubtful. They must. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, religion without philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They must combine. Right philosophy, right religion, and that is *Bhagavad-gītā*. **Kiśora:** Most Christians say that they cannot see any ah, purpose for animals being there other than for us to eat them. Because God put them there so that we could eat them. **Revatīnandana:** I heard they say that. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? What is that? **Revatīnandana:** They say. Devotee 2: [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** They say it! [Several talking] they say it, but what does the Bible say? The Bible says, "the grains of the earth the fruits of the trees." That God said you should eat that. And we talked about it earlier. That when there is nothing else to eat, then all right then you will eat a fish. If they are all [indistinct]... **Prabhupāda:** And another thing is the Christian go to the church. They pray "God give us our daily bread." Nobody says God give us our daily meat. **Devotees:** [chuckles] Right. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. Or flesh. Give me my flesh. **Prabhupāda:** God give us our daily flesh. Nobody says. So, bread is made from grains, so that is the proof that you should eat grains. Why it is specially made God give us our daily bread? Why he does not say God give us our daily chop? **Devotees:** [Laughter] **Revatīnandana:** When, when you use that kind of language. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** They begin to think. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** They don't think of it as flesh. **Prabhupāda:** They have no thinking power. That means less intelligent. **Revatīnandana:** Because it is calf, they are eating calf. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** They call it ah, veal. Devotee 3: Veal. **Prabhupāda:** Beetle? **Revatīnandana:** When they eat the calf. **Prabhupāda:** Ah. **Revatīnandana:** They call the meat veal. **Prabhupāda:** Veal? **Revatīnandana:** Veal yeah. Veal it means calf-meat. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Revatīnandana:** But they don't think I am eating calf. They think I am eating veal. They separate the meat. **Prabhupāda:** But what is the veal? **Revatīnandana:** From the calf. Veal is calves meat. **Prabhupāda:** But that's [indistinct] you have to meat [?]... Śyāmasundara: Calf meat. **Prabhupāda:** Ah, calf meat. Yes. But [indistinct] here the prayer is God give us our daily bread. **Devotees:** [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** So [laughs] is, is the bread made of meat or flesh? Does it mean? Devotee 2: Quite right. **Prabhupāda:** Does it mean? Devotee 2: I have heard they mean the necessities, the bare necessities... **Prabhupāda:** Huh? Devotee 2: [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** No, no, necessity is everything. Stool is also necessity for the hogs. **Revatīnandana:** So now they say that the necessity is basically flesh. If that, the flesh is a necessity... Devotee 3: [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** Then why don't they say flesh? Devotee 4: Ah, they think they can't exist without meat. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Devotee 4: They think they cannot exist... **Prabhupāda:** Then why you ask bread? Why not meat? **Revatīnandana:** Right. That's a good one. [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** If it is absolutely necessity, then you directly ask for meat. Why you're asking bread? Śyāmasundara: Then why are so many millions of people alive in India... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Śyāmasundara: Then why are so many millions of people... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: Still alive in India. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Śyāmasundara: If they don't get meat. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. Devotee 2: Then they also argue that Christ gave them fish to eat. **Prabhupāda:** Hm? Devotee 2: Then they... **Prabhupāda:** All these Marwari people... **Revatīnandana:** We talked about that earlier. **Prabhupāda:** All these Marwari people, they are strictly vegetarian. **Revatīnandana:** Oh yeah. **Prabhupāda:** I have seen they are healthy. **Revatīnandana:** Oh yeah, they [chuckles] that's right. **Prabhupāda:** Rather the Bengali's who eat fish and meat... **Revatīnandana:** Yeah [chuckles] **Prabhupāda:** Lean and thin, oh! **Revatīnandana:** Yeah, they are very skinny. **Prabhupāda:** All dead body. Nowadays especially, almost all dead body. **Revatīnandana:** And the Marwari's are more intelligent now... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Revatīnandana:** Because they are vegetarian. **Prabhupāda:** Not only more intelligent, they are materially very opulent. **Revatīnandana:** More prosperous. Śyāmasundara: More attractive. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. [*aside: conversation about devote going to New York on Wednesday*] [break] Śyāmasundara: We were discussing House of Lords. **Prabhupāda:** That will be very nice. **Devotees:** [Laughter] Śyāmasundara: Me and Dennis were discussing how to do it. **Prabhupāda:** That will be very nice. Yes, these rascals should be brought in the court. That how do you deny God? Ah, I, I shall go. Śyāmasundara: [laughs] yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Yes...They should be sued, prosecuted. Śyāmasundara: So, then we discussed how... **Prabhupāda:** And why they professed that I am a Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian if they have no understanding of God? **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** We say religion means to understand God, what is the... Religion without understanding of God, what is this religion? Father Bernard: Religion is nothing without the understanding of consciousness. **Prabhupāda:** You, see? Dhanañjaya: In the Vatican which is the greatest edifice... **Prabhupāda:** Ah. Dhanañjaya: The greatest monument in the Christian religion, the nearest concept they have to God is a Dove. And there is a huge altar, a very, very elaborate altar in the Vatican and very, very costly gold leaf and so much marble and precious metals and precious stones. And at the top of the altar the focal point is a dove. **Prabhupāda:** A dove? **Revatīnandana:** The bird. Dhanañjaya: A bird. **Prabhupāda:** A dove yes. Dhanañjaya: Yes, and this is a symbol of the Holy Ghost. In other words, the Supersoul. But they interpret the Supersoul as this bird. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Dhanañjaya: Just as a bird. **Prabhupāda:** This is in *Upaniṣad*'s also. The living entity and Supersoul... Dhanañjaya: Yes. **Prabhupāda:** It is described as bird. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** Two birds sitting on the same tree. Dhanañjaya: Yes, but here they don't... One bird. **Revatīnandana:** What he is saying is that they... Instead of putting Viṣṇu... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Revatīnandana:** Instead of putting Viṣṇu... **Prabhupāda:** Hm. **Revatīnandana:** With four arms their only conception of God is the dove—he is saying. A bird. Dhanañjaya: Because they say... **Revatīnandana:** They have no understanding of the, of the Supersoul. **Prabhupāda:** They have not reached the ultimate goal. Dhanañjaya: No. **Prabhupāda:** They do not know but this bird conception of the Supreme is there in the *Upaniṣads*. **Revatīnandana:** Oh yeah. Devotee 5: You mean *Kaṭha* *Upaniṣad* yes? **Prabhupāda:** Hm. Dhanañjaya: There, the Christians say you cannot paint God. You cannot paint him. Because it's [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** Hm. No because you do not know how you paint. Śyāmasundara: [laughs] yeah. **Prabhupāda:** The defect is that you do not know. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. **Prabhupāda:** But one who knows he'll paint. Śyāmasundara: They have painted God like Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel; there is God handing Adam the life spark. Dhanañjaya: Hm. But in the Vatican [indistinct] Śyāmasundara: [indistinct] **Revatīnandana:** The Sistine Chapel is in the Vatican. Dhanañjaya: In the Vatican—Saint Peters. **Revatīnandana:** Oh, Saint Peter's Basilica is one thing but in the Vatican, there is also the Sistine Chapel. And there they have a painting... Dhanañjaya: But the Holy Ghost is symbolized as a dove. **Revatīnandana:** Hm. **Prabhupāda:** So, you can end. [End]