Lecture — September 10, 1972, Dallas

Prabhupāda: You can read them or you can simply take this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa:

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

The effect of this chanting will be, first instalment to cleanse your heart, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We are suffering in this material world, of course foolish persons they think they are not suffering they are enjoying, but actually you are not enjoying you are suffering. But because we have become less intelligent we take suffering as enjoyment. That is the result. That is the symptom of raja-guṇa. There are three qualities of the material world, sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, goodness passion and ignorance. So those who are…

Generally in this age people are very much passionate as a result of this passionate quality they actually suffer by working very hard but they take it as enjoyment. This is called illusion. To commit mistake, to be illusioned, to cheat and to use our imperfect senses for gathering knowledge. These are four defects of conditioned soul. Therefore to take knowledge from conditioned soul is not perfect knowledge because the conditioned soul is defective. Physician heal thyself. The physician himself if he is diseased or suffering from some ailment, how he can treat others?

So all our leaders they are blind, they have no perfect knowledge, they do not know what is after this body. As we have… everyone of us this experience that we had a body like a child, we had a body like a boy, like a young man, now I am aged but those bodies are no longer existing. I don’t find where is my other childhood body, where is my boyhood body, where is my youthhood body but I remember that I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man. So I am existing although my bodies are no longer existing.

Therefore the conclusion should be that even after an illusion of this present body I’ll exist in another body. They do not know the subtle laws of nature that I have got, everyone has got two bodies, one gross and one subtle. Everyone experiences, every night about this gross and subtle bodies. The gross body lies down on the bed and the subtle body carries me to a different island where I see different enjoyments, friends talking with different men, forgetting the subtle body lying on the room.

So there are two kinds of bodies, subtle body and gross body. So when this gross body is no longer usable then the subtle body carries me to another womb of mother according to my work and I get a gross body and after a few months I come out with this body and begin my activities. This is called transmigration of the soul, the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and there are 8,400,000 species of forms we have already passed through and we shall come to the human form of body, especially civilised human being.

So at the present moment our duty is to enquire about God, athāto brahma jijñāsā. If you are missing this point, if you don’t enquire about God in this human form of life then there is no guarantee what kind of body I am transmigrating, next life. The transmigration is there, I have already explained by the subtle body, but we can get information from śāstra just like Bhagavad-gītā. It is stated there;

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino ‘pi mām
[Bg. 9.25]

Those who are worshippers of demigods they go to the particular planet or planets, there are many millions and trillions of planets both within this material world and spiritual world. So we are wandering in different forms of life, in different planets by the process of transmigration of the soul. Now this human form of life is a facility, where we shall go next, that facility we have got. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, if you want to go to the planets of the demigods, the moon planet is also accepted as one of the demigodly planets according to our śāstra.

Those are very much expert in karma-kāṇḍa yoga who do fruitive activities they are promoted to the moon planet. Similarly there are other planets also, the topmost planet is called Brahma-loka where Lord Brahmālives there the duration of life is very very long. In every planet, the moon planet is one of the heavenly planets there also if you can reach, if you go there you get your duration of life 10,000s of years. That is according to demigodly calculations. Our one year, our one-day, our six months is equal to one day.

So in this way you can live there for 10,000 of years but if you go still higher planetary system your one day is millions of years but still there is birth, death, old age and disease. No planet, nowhere within this material world, you can live forever although you have got the tendency to live forever because actually you are eternal you want to live forever but circumstantially we are forced to accept change of body and that we are doing even in this present life so in order to stop this transmigration and in order to achieve the highest perfection, namely eternal blissful life of knowledge then we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, simply this method will help you. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā;

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi …
[Bg. 18.65]

Simply by this process, simply always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā, simply by devoting becoming a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, mad-bhakta, simply by worshipping Kṛṣṇa, mad-yājī, simply by offering obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi he comes back. So we are teaching these four principles to the human society to think of always, think of Kṛṣṇa always, therefore this our chanting process:

[audience also chant]

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

As soon as you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra you think of Kṛṣṇa naturally. So to think of Kṛṣṇa always it is not very difficult task, neither you lose anything, there is no loss on your part, but if you can think of Kṛṣṇa always, oh there is great benediction. You, next life you go back to home back to Kṛṣṇa. It’s a very easy process, we don’t recommend that you have to make some gymnastic process, we never make hard, ah press your nose and keep your head down. No that is not, simply you think of Kṛṣṇa;

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ
yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ
…nitya-yuktā upāsate
[Bg. 9.14]

This is eternal worship, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa’s name is not different because God is absolute. Kṛṣṇa’s name is as good as Kṛṣṇa it is not that I am chanting Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa and hearing Kṛṣṇa is different from the service, no. There is no difference. Kṛṣṇa, His holy name is also hearing Kṛṣṇa, therefore when I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa it means I am associating with real Kṛṣṇa, and because I am associating with real Kṛṣṇa I am becoming purified.

Just like if you always keep in touch with fire you become warm or if you keep yourself warm you do not catch cold. Similarly if you always keep in Kṛṣṇa, just like if you always keep in the sunlight there is no question of darkness. Similarly if you keep with Kṛṣṇa always simply by this chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa then there is no question of being covered by the illusion of māyā. That is liberation, liberation means not to be contaminated by the darkness of māyā or illusional world.

Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Svarūpa, in our own constitutional position, our constitutional position is that we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, just like straw and the sparks are part and parcel of the whole fire, similarly Kṛṣṇa or God is the whole and we are small units.

So we are part and parcel as confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta [Bg. 15.7]. “All these living entities they are my part and parcels.” So if you keep yourself as part and parcel then your position is secure. I’ll give you another example, a big machine and a small screw is part and parcel of the machine so long the screw is attached to the machine the screw has value and as soon as it is detached from the machine, it has no value. It is on a piece of wire but when it is attached to the machine it has got great value. If that screw is missing, you can pay 5, 6, 10 to find out the screw that is missing.

So being attached with Kṛṣṇa we have got value, being detached from Kṛṣṇa we have no value. This Kṛṣṇa philosophy means this. Being attached with Kṛṣṇa you have got your value, being detached from Kṛṣṇa we have no value. Actually that is happening… this modern civilisation despite all advancements of education, economic development, skyscraper buildings, [coughs] millions of motor cars and their highways. On account of being detached with Kṛṣṇa, or God there is no happiness. Everyone is dissatisfied, frustrated, confused the only reason is that there is detachment from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore I say to my American students always that you have advanced in material civilisation, that is very good but utilise this facilities for Kṛṣṇa, then you become perfect.

Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255], so our philosophy is this, we don’t check your advancement in material comforts. But material comforts minus Kṛṣṇa we create this cause, we create [indistinct] You bring Kṛṣṇa then you become perfect, just like zero, zero has no value but if there is one by the side of zero it is 10 immediately, another zero it is 100, another zero means 1000, another zero means.. You can go on increasing zeros but because the one is there it is increasing value but you take out the one they are simply zeros, there is no value.

Similarly you maybe have advancement materially that’s nice, we are taking advantage of this microphone for serving Kṛṣṇa, so we can take advantage then its value is increased simply if you put one, God is one. So whatever we are doing it doesn’t matter you keep that One with you, Kṛṣṇa. Then everything has value. This is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
[SB 1.2.13]

This instruction was given by Sūta Gosvāmī in a big meeting of learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya long long ago and he gave this instruction, “my dear best of the brāhmaṇas who are present here”, so ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā, dvija-śreṣṭhā best of the brāhmaṇas, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. There is division of labour, the first-class intellectual labourers, just like educationalists, scientists, philosophers they are first-class worker. They are called intelligent class of men or brāhmaṇas, the next the administrative class, politicians they are called kṣatriyas. The next, the productive class, the mercantile community, businessmen traders industrialists, they are producing wealth they are called the vaiśyas but they come to the third class.

The first-class, the intellectuals, the second-class the administrator, the third class the producers and the fourth class simply workers. So there are divisions either you call them by example, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdrās or by intellectual class, administrator class, productive class and labourer class. That is existing always, that is the law of nature we cannot change it but the Bhagavat says that in whichever class you may be it doesn’t matter. You may belong to the intellectual class or political class or productive class or labourer class it doesn’t matter. Your aim should be that you are satisfying Kṛṣṇa by your work.

There is a verse, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13], if you are pleasing the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your occupation, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, varṇa and aśrama these are social divisions and there are spiritual divisions also. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī. That is perfectional living. And now it has come to be known as Hindu religion that is Hindu religion is unknown in Vedic civilisation.

The real principle is varṇāśrama dharma, four varṇas and four aśramas, that is going on in a perverted form as Hindu religion but actually there is no such word as Hindu religion, varṇāśrama-dharma. This varṇāśrama-dharma is present everywhere in every part of the world under different names so in whichever classification you are in you can satisfy God, that is your perfection.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
[SB 1.2.13]

Just like this microphone is manufactured by some mechanic but this microphone is used for broadcasting God’s message then the manufacturer becomes perfect because he has given something for the service of the Lord. His services are being utilised for the use of the Lord similarly everything can be used, so there is no checking of advancements of modern civilisation. Don’t misunderstand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is checking the… They say sometimes, “escaping” we are escaping. No!

We are creating only an intelligent class of men because society needs an intelligent class of men, just like in your body there are divisions, the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. The four divisions are required for upkeep of the body, if you have got simply brain, head, no legs then it is difficult you cannot go, or you have no arms but although there are four divisions the head division is very important because if I cut one’s head the all other divisions remaining is useless. So at the present moment the head is cut off from the source of intelligence the brain. Actually there is no intellectual class of men, there are productive class of men and worker class of men, but they cannot make this world happy.

The productive class of men means the capitalists and the worker class of men means communist, as I said before. So none of them can make this world happy. There must be head department or the brāhmaṇa department and kṣatriya department. So there is the need of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for creating a class of intelligent men who can give real knowledge to the people to make their life perfect, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement try to understand it scrutinising either by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra that will also help or by reading our books that will also help but our whole idea is that you try to understand this movement and be benefited, thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! [offering of the obeisances]

Guest (1): About Jesus Christ he said, you know Jesus Christ said that he is the only way to God the Father, that no man comes to the Father except by him and I was wondering how your teachings relate to the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: You are following that way?

Guest (1): Of Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): I can’t see that you would like to begin.

Prabhupāda: The first thing is the question is of following, Jesus Christ says, says that it is through him only.

Guest (1): Yeah right.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right but you are following him?

Guest (1): Certainly.

Prabhupāda: Are you following Jesus Christ strictly as he says?

Guest (1): To the best of my knowledge.

Prabhupāda: So, do you kill animals?

Guest (1): Sir?

Prabhupāda: Are you killing animals?

Guest (1): No obviously no.

Prabhupāda: You don’t eat meat?

Guest (1): No I hate it.

Prabhupāda: That’s very nice. That is [indistinct]. Jesus Christ says, “Thou shalt not kill”. So if you kill and at the same time say you are follower of Jesus Christ how can I accept?

Guest (1): That’s true and there is a lot of Christians who would agree with you.

Prabhupāda: Therefore those who are simply following the rules and regulations given by Lord Jesus Christ they will attain perfection, that’s a fact.

Guest (2): Do you think the Holy Bible is God’s holy gospel do you think it is the word of God?

Prabhupāda: Yes the Holy Bible is good as I have already said that if you are actually following the rules and regulations laid down in the Holy Bible you will one day attain perfection there is no doubt about it. But unfortunately we see that mostly they are not following. Yes.

Devotee: Another question.

Guest (3): Yes, [indistinct] in certain parts of the body and well, do you use sugar? Do you use sugar in your diet? Because the reason I am bringing this up is because [indistinct] because the main cause of cancer is sugar.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that to become only vegetarian is not the aim of life.

Guest (3): No.

Prabhupāda: There are many animals they are also vegetarian. The monkeys, the monkeys a vegetarian and he also lives in the jungle and he also without any cloth naked …natural life, but with all these qualifications, he is only monkey. So to become monkey is not our aim, so monkeys is like vegetarian. Means that vegetarian or non-vegetarian that your eating should be so regulated that you can concentrate your mind on God.

Meat eaters their mind is very agitated so they cannot understand well. The real thing is how to concentrate your mind on God and so these are some of the means. When we say no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat eating and no gambling. We do not say that these four principles are our aims and objectives. No!

This is helping me. The real objective is to understand God and to love Him. So simply becoming vegetarian it may be a helping, stepping stone but unless we learn to come to the point of loving God, either we become vegetarian or non-vegetarian there is no difference.

Guest (3): I was referring to sugar in [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: [Aside] what’s he saying?

Devotee: He’s talking about sugar.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Sugar. Sugar is also good you can take. For good food you require sugar, milk, grains, fruits, flowers, vegetables, these are first-class foods in goodness. Too much spice, or fish, eggs or rotten foods they are in the modes of passion and ignorance. So we must select foodstuffs in goodness and that also should be purified by offering to God.

Just like we prepare foodstuffs from these groups, vegetables, grains, fruits, flowers, milk and sugar, and we offer it to Kṛṣṇa and after Kṛṣṇa has taken it we eat that is our…Kṛṣṇa asks for this class of foodstuffs, he says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ

yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26], he wants it. He never says, give me eggs and fish and meat. No. So our real policy is to accept the remnants of foodstuff taken by Kṛṣṇa so in this way we are trying to be purified.

Guest (4): Explain, can you explain to me the experience you have when you concentrate on God?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: Explain the feelings you have when you concentrate on God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the feeling is that I am always with God so I’m not afraid of anything, that’s all. [Some audience laughter] nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28] a person who is always with God he is not afraid of everything. Even there is danger, he is not afraid. This is feeling of God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says: kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31] and we have learned from scripture that Prahlād Mahārāja he was harassed by his father for his only fault that he was God conscious.

His father being of the atheist class, and he wanted to harass this five years old boy in so many instances. He dropped him from the top of the hill, he placed him under the foot of an elephant, he put him in the fire, so many and he was not afraid, Kṛṣṇa saves. So if you feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa or God always then you are safe, there is no danger.

That is brain substance. Not that, “God is within me therefore let me ask from Him for my sense gratification.” That is not brain substance. That is business. Feelings of God means, “My dear Lord I am your eternal servant, I have placed myself under You, if You like you can kill me, if You like You can save me but kindly please be kind enough to engage me in Your service.” This is spiritual.

One should be engaged in the service of the Lord always, despite all dangers that is to be done. Actually a devotee he has no danger, just like a small child so long the small child is on the lap of the mother, there is no danger. The mother will give protection if there is danger the mother will first of all cover the child and she will face the danger. Similarly if you are really Kṛṣṇa conscious then Kṛṣṇa will give us always protection, so we are safe in our service condition.

Guest (5): [indistinct] temple [indistinct] who are living outside of the temple [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, many of our devotees live outside the temple but still there are devotees. They follow the rules and regulations, they chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So there is no such distinction whether they are living in the temple or without the temple. Anywhere you are living but you must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says:

gṛhe bā vanete thāke, ‘hā gaurāṅga’ bo’le ḍāke
narottama māge tāra saṅga
[Sāvaraṇa-śrī-gaura-mahimā, 4]

Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura a great ācārya, he says I want to associate with such persons never mind whether he is living at home or he is living in the forest if he is God conscious I want his association. So that is our position, it doesn’t matter whether you live within the temple or outside the temple if you’re God conscious then you are our worshipable, we worship you. That is our…

Guest (6): [indistinct] soul…

Prabhupāda: Soul?

Guest (6): Soul and goal they are the path of all [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Soul is part and parcel of God, just like fire and the sparks they are together fire. The spark is the small and the original fire is big, similarly qualitatively as fire the soul and God is one they are the same qualitatively but God is great and the soul is small. So they are one and different simultaneously. God is great and the soul is small, therefore they are different and God is also fire and the soul is also fire therefore they are one. This is the philosophy.

Gold and particles of gold they are gold, generally they are gold similarly God is Supreme Soul, Paramātmā and we individual souls we are ātma. This is the difference, Paramātmā the Supreme Soul and ātma individual soul. The Vedic instruction is: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13] He is nitya or eternal we are also eternal, he is also conscious we are also conscious. He is conscious of the whole universe, I am conscious of this body, I am not conscious of your body, you are not conscious of my body, but Kṛṣṇa is conscious of your body, my body and everyone. Therefore His consciousness is innumerable in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3].

When the kṣetra, the soul and kṣetra means the body and kṣetra-jñaṁ, one who knows that it is his body, he is called kṣetra-jñaṁ. I know that this is not my body, you know it is your body. I never say I am this body, I say my body. You say, my body, so therefore one who knows this body he is called kṣetra-jñaṁ or the ātma but there is another personality that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi, because I know about my body so I am called kṣetra-jñaṁ. So Kṛṣṇa says I am also kṣetra-jñaṁ, means sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata.

The difference is He is present in every kṣetra, in every body, I am present only in my body. So being proprietor of this body I am kṣetra-jñaṁ. But Kṛṣṇa, just like [indistinct] you have got a land, you are proprietor of that land and your friend has got a land and so many lands but God is the proprietor of all the lands. You are similarly different, similarly real ātma Paramātmā is God and we are subordinate ātma under Him, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Both of them are equal in consciousness but the Supreme Consciousness is maintaining all the subordinate consciousness. That is the difference between ātma and Paramātmā, or God and the living person…. Yes.

Indian Man: [indistinct] Lord Kṛṣṇa [indistinct] karma…

Prabhupāda: So what is your explanation? First of all let me know what is your general explanation. karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47] what is your explanation?

Indian Man: [indistinct] [break]

Devotee: What is your explanation for that?

Prabhupāda: So come here [break] [end]

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