# Room Conversation — November 11, 1971, Delhi <audio controls preload="metadata" src="https://media.prabhupada.io/audio/1971/711111R2-DELHI.mp3"></audio> **Tejiyas:** So this is Sri Madan. He is architect. **Prabhupāda:** Madan Mohan. **Tejiyas:** And this is Sri... **Prabhupāda:** Jagat Puruṣa. [break] Guest (1): [Transl.How are you Mahārāja?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. All right.] *Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam* *[[bg/9/26|[Bg. 9.26] ]]. Then? **Tejiyas:** This is Sri Narayana Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Tejiyas:** And he has been helpful. Very nice. **Prabhupāda:** *Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā* [[sb/10/22/35|[SB. 10.22.35] ]]. [Transl. Whatever possessions one has got he should utilise them for the service of the Supreme Lord.] Just see our condition. You have read this morning's paper? **Guest (1):** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Swami Akhandananda is speaking *kalpanā* [imagination]. Such a big *sannyāsī*, he says that Kṛṣṇa is *kalpanā* [imagination]. **Guest (1):** Who was that? **Prabhupāda:** Swami Akhandananda, he was... **Guest (1):** Swami Akhandananda, I see. But yes, in Birla temple. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Kṛṣṇa is *kalpanā* [imagination]. **Guest (2):** *Kalpanā* [imagination]. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, *kalpanā* [imagination]. Māyāvādī theory is *brahma nirākāra*, [Transl.So you can imagine any form of Him. Everything is all right.] You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big *sannyāsī*, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for..., of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper? **Guest (1):** No. I haven't read this particular statement. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Rohiṇīnandan, can you get that paper, *Hindustan*? **Guest:** Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar. **Prabhupāda:** The learned scholar, they have been described in the *Bhagavad-gītā*, *māyayā apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ* *[[bg/7/15|[Bg. 7.15] ]]. Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is *āsurī*. Then *māyayā apahṛta-jñānā*. Therefore, however learned they may be, *māyā* takes away their knowledge. *Māyayā apahṛta-jñānā āsurī-bhāvam āśr...* That is described in the *Bhagavad-gītā*. [Transl. Is God a subject matter of your imagination?] The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned *sannyāsī* says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions.* [Transl. Look, Akhandananda said this! People are not so crooked. They are not stuffed with much] hodgepodge. **Guest:** Another one, *Bala-yogi*, has made a statement that "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu." **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Guest:** "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu." **Prabhupāda:** I will call...? **Guest (2):** "Anybody but not Hindu." **Guest:** He is not Hindu, he says. **Guest (2):** Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, "I am not a Hindu." **Guest:** He was giving this discourse at *Rāma-līlā* ground. Nobody is now, I think. **Prabhupāda:** [referring to paper] [Transl.Read it. Let us hear. Yes, in Hindi.] What is the heading? **Guest:** This one? [Transl. "The seeker of absolute truth requires to take to the process of imagination."] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Require to imagine.] **Guest:** [Transl.Require.] **Prabhupāda:** "To imagine." By imagination one is going to *tattva-vastu*, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the *tattva-vastu*. *Tattva* means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man's imagination. **Guest:** You see, Swāmījī, this is the headline, which is not a Akhandananda's statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline. **Prabhupāda:** But people will read as Akhandananda's... **Guest:** Yes, sir. **Guest (2):** Why don't you read the whole matter? The sum and substance is same. Śrī Prabhupāda says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, then why should I read? You read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong. **Prabhupāda:** Vasudeva, you just..., you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. *Tattva..*. [break] ...you imagine yourself that "My lover will be like this, like this, like that.'' In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument? **Guest:** [Transl.I think he himself is confused.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Svami Akhandanandaji's discourse on *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. And he is reading *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*!] **Guest:** [Transl. He was speaking on *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* in Birla mandir. Today after hearing his lecture I must question him? How far can one reach by imagination? Yesterday Dayānanda Mahārāja dās invited me to attend it and ask if you have any question. I said, I am busy here now till 12th. But I will surely come in between.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl.In this age there is an increase of Kaṁsas in the form of sinful activities, corruption and torture. The number of Kaṁsas have increase manyfold. But even now the Supreme Lord is waiting for some Vasudevas and Devakīs to incarnate Himself.] [Prabhupāda reads article] [Transl."Today Svami Akhandanandaji spoke *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* on the second day in Lakshmi Narayana mandir, Birla mandir." That means if some Vasudeva is available...] **Guest:* [Transl. Devakī and Vasudeva are available one more God will come.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Han. If one Devakī and Vasudeva were available I would have imagined God and God would incarnate. Just see!] **Guest:** He is not a *bhakta*. **Prabhupāda:** Huh? Huh? **Guest:** He is not a *bhakta*, he is a scholar. **Prabhupāda:** What is the nonsense scholar [laughter] if he does not know the truth? [Transl. Therefore *Bhagavad-gītā* condemns them as] *māyayā* *apahṛta-jñānā* *[[bg/7/15|[Bg. 7.15] ]]. Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by *māyā*. Caitanya *Mahāprabhu* [Transl.therefore warned] *māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa* [[cc/madhya/6/169|[Cc. Madhya 6.169] ]]. If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness.* [Transl. Just like if one is bitten by a snake once he is finished.] **Guest:** [Transl. Māyavāda-snake.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Yes. These Māyavādīs declare that God has no form. This is the reason the whole world especially India has turned into atheist.] **Guest:** [Transl. What is the cause of this?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. This is the cause that many fools are now posing as learned. That's a fact. They are actually fools. But they are in the position of a scholar and people accept them. This is the reason. They have created a position for themselves. When they speak, foolish people, generally people are foolish, and they become more foolish. This is the pathetic condition of India. The followers of Ramakrishna Mission preach that anything even stool, if you accept it as God it is God. This is how they speak. So it is very difficult to rectify this situation.] **Guest:** [Transl. If God is found in the stool then why do people desire to attain God and all that? Why endeavour at all.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. That's what. What is sin? Sin is nothing. In his Chicago speech Vivekananda said.] Why do you think that you are sinner? [Transl. So those who act sinfully they will think we are not sinners. We are God. We are Brahman. We can do anything we like. Who can stop them? There is no consideration of sin and piety, or of God. Everything is going on like that. [Laughs.] It says about us. "Shouldn't be afraid of fight against oppression."] **Guest:** [Transl. Your discourse was very appropriate. Timely and in favour of everyone.] Guest (2): [Transl. Yesterday your lecture was very nice. Everyone was praising.] Our theory is not that. Kṛṣṇa is fighting. He is inducing fight against irreligiosity. **Guest:** [Transl.Yesterday's conclusion was that one must have faith first. They understood what the human beings should do? Because of faith they had to come here. Last evening, just by a single phone call they all gathered here. I said, for this thing there is no question of any invitation. Mahārāja has arrived and he is sitting on his seat! You are aware that he has arrived in Delhi. So it is your duty now to approach him personally and inquire from him whatever you like hear. So that was last evening influence. Everyone came. I received many telephone calls and I told them to go to number two and sit down. As and when you get an opportunity you go before him and ask. Prabhu, one should not be idle in this type of service.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself says,] *Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya* [[bg/7/7|[Bg. 7.7] ]]: "There is no higher reality than Me.'' Are we imaginists? Kṛṣṇa says that *mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya*: "There is nothing,'' I mean, "as higher reality than Me.'' And these people are taking Him as a *mūrta-vigrahaḥ* of *kalpanā* [imagination]. [Transl. The form made out of imagination! And imagination is required! I don't know what you make out of his statement, but...] **Guest:** [Transl.That's what. Kalpanā has no value.] **Prabhupāda:** No. Why this word *kalpanā* [imagination] is there? That is..., that is my point. *Kalpanā* means something false imagination. *Kalpanā* is not reality, and Kṛṣṇa says that "There is no higher reality than Me.'' And He became the subject matter of my *kalpanā*. [Transl.Just think about it.] **Guest:** [Transl.God says, give up all religions and surrender unto Me.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. And that is *kalpanā* [imagination.] **Guest:** [Transl. One has to imagine. After that you become nil. Then what remains? These kinds of statements create a lot of confusion.] Guest (2): [Transl. There is no personality like you in all over Delhi.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.I don't know anything. I am engaged only in the service of God. You all bless me so that may I never become distracted from the path of my service. May this doesn't turn into *kalpanā*!] [laughs] Let it become reality. **Guest:** [Transl.If one is in doubt then he is nowhere.] **Prabhupāda:** Why this word should be used as *kalpanā* [imagination]? I don't think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken. **Guest:** This is Times? Hindustan? No. Navabharata Times. Guest (2): [Transl. Then they should write Navabharata Times.] **Guest:** [Transl. Akṣayajī should phone them.] Guest (2): [Transl.Akṣayajī should do that.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. You should ask him that God said there is no reality greater than Me. The supreme truth. Absolute truth. How can the absolute truth come under the jurisdiction of your imagination?] **Guest:** [Transl.He gives imagination more importance.] **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Guest:** He says imagination is the supermost. **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. And if one can imagine a Vasudeva then Kṛṣṇa will come again.] **Guest:** [reads from Newspaper.] [Transl.he says, "All religious systems of the world are prevailing on the basis of imaginary God who creates the world."] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Look, first of all imagine God!] **Guest:** [Transl. Imagine on God.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. What do you mean by imagine on God?] **Guest:** [continues reading] [Transl."But *Bhagavata-dharma* says that God not only creates the world but also dwells in it." What are you talking? That's what you want. "You are *nirguna*: devoid of qualities and *nirākāra*: formless and also beyond the reach of ordinary persons' senses. Therefore God is not so useful for ordinary persons."] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. For example, if a person is useless he is chastised that he has no qualities. And what is the meaning of *nirākāra*? He who has no hands, no legs, no eyes. One who has no legs what is he called, crippled?] **Guest:** [Transl.Yes, crippled.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.This is their prayer to God! He has no hands! *Nirākāra*. He has no eyes! He has no legs! This is understood. So this is their prayer to God. God is blind, God is lame, God is crippled. Indirectly doesn't it mean so? Bhagavān is *sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ*, *śāstra* says. Bhagavān Himself says,] *ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ* [[bg/10/8|[Bg. 10.8] ]], [Transl.All forms emanated from Me.] *ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.* [Transl. If the father is beautiful then automatically beautiful children will be produced. If he is formless then wherefrom so many beautiful children have come? Do you have any such experience that from air beautiful children are coming out? Do you have any experience? I have a form means my father must also has a form. And his father also had a form. Suppose you haven't seen your great grandfathers, but how can you say they were formless? Answer? If you have a form then how your father, his father, his father will be formless? God says, I am the supreme father.] *sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ* [[bg/14/4|[Bg. 14.4] ]]. *Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.* [Transl. When Bhagavān is the supreme father...From our practical experience we see that my father, his father has form then how the supreme father will have no form? *Śāstra* declares, *vigraha*. *Vigraha* means form. *sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ*. *Vigraha* means form.] > īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ > anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam > [Bs. 5.1] [Transl. He who is the cause of all causes, He is formless! That is material conception, not spiritual understanding. The problem is...Just like this my shirt or coat, it has got one hand or two hands. Because I do have hands therefore it has got hands. The cloth was cut and stitched with two hands.] They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. [*Bhagavad-gītā* tells us that this body,] *vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya* [[bg/2/22|[Bg. 2.22] ]]. [Transl. As one gives up his old cloth and puts on a new cloth, similarly this dress-shirt or coat have been compared with this body. If the body has a form, as I said about coat or shirt, then how the owner of the body is formless? Do you understand it? The coat has hands because I have hands. So this material body is, according to the *śāstra*, like coat or shirt. So my origin, I am spirit soul, if I have no form then how this body of mine has form? Just like this table, it has been covered by a cloth and it looks like table. Because the table has got shape therefore the cloth also got the shape of the table. Similarly, we, the living entities, we have got form, therefore our bodies which are compared to shirt or coat have forms. So how can the living entities be formless? And the Supreme Lord says,] *mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta* [[bg/15/7|[Bg. 15.7] ]]. [Transl. Bhagavān's part and parcel...Just like my part and parcel is my son. I am part and parcel of my father. Bhagavān says, *mamaivāṁśo*. So how can Bhagavān be formless? And Bhagavān Himself declares] *avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam* [[bg/9/11|[Bg. 9.11] ]]. [Transl.Just because I have descended in a human form therefore people accept Me as an ordinary human being. *Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto.* They do not know My supreme dominion over all that be. Things are to be considered. We, the *vaiṣṇavas*, we worship the Lord's Deity form. Is that all imagination? The devotees spend huge amount of money to build such big temples. Is it all for imagination?] **Guest:* [Transl. He who gave such a beautiful shape to this universe, He has no form?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. He has no form?] **Guest:** [Transl. That means the creator must be very beautiful. That's why He created such a beautiful shape.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Certainly. Just like an artist he knows. The point is if people are misled in this way then how they will be benefitted?] *yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ* [[bg/3/21|[Bg. 3.21] ]] [Transl. Whatever a great person does common men follow. Therefore great persons should not speak such things. But what can be done?] **Guest:** [Transl.Now I believe you will be staying in India for a while?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.The program is like that.] I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. [Transl. November is on now.] **Guest:** [Transl. Let there be an *āśrama* here. Gurudāsjī was telling like this. Some plots of land have also been seen. We checked and roamed around.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl.Yes. See, if available an *āśrama* can be built here.] **Guest:** [Transl. This is our heartiest desire.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. You all together...] **Guest:** [Transl.Mahārājajī, No problem. So much land is available. All facilities are available here. We all are busy finding a suitable place.] **Prabhupāda:** Thank you very much. [Transl. The main theme of our preaching is *Bhagavad-gītā* *As It Is*. We don't need to imagine anything. [laughs.] We have facts.] We are dealing with facts. [Transl. We don't have to imagine and make a program.] The..., already everything is stated in the *Bhagavad-gītā*. We have to simply explain them. That's all. Explanation* [Transl. is also not necessary. It is so simple in itself. But they are trying to cover it. It is self illuminated. Just like the sun is self illuminated. And in order to cover the illumination you lock your doors.] You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible. But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. [Transl. This is going on. I am a demon. I want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is Kaṁsa's philosophy. He doesn't know he himself is Kaṁsa. What was Kaṁsa's idea? As soon as Kṛṣṇa will take birth let me know and I will kill Him at once. And he says this is imagination. He kills Him even before His birth! He himself is Kaṁsa! You ask him that you say the number of *Kaṁsas* has increased nowadays so are you included in it?] [laughs] **Guest:** [Transl. I must ask him today. At least tell me why did you talk of *kalpanā*? The word *kalpanā* is somewhat new.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl.Can we imagine that you too are a Kaṁsa? Is God an object of imagination?] **Guest:** [Transl.Finally he refutes his own argument and ends up in Kṛṣṇa. He comes down to Kṛṣṇa.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. That means simply jugglery of words. He could have said in the beginning that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead—*Svayam Bhagavān Kṛṣna*. What was the difficulty to admit this? Why you juggle words like *kalpanā* and so on...] **Guest:* [Transl.Svāmijī did say that the necterean topics of Kṛṣṇa are the life giving remedy for the miseries of the worldly people.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Is remedy imaginary?] **Guest:** [Transl.How imagination can give you relief? Until and unless your heart is filled with mellows of love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Oh, thank you. [aside:] Wherefrom did you pick that up? All right, thank you very much. Come on. [Transl.Take. All of you eat a banana each. No, no. we have. Take this also. Mātājī brought so many things. Take.] [laughs] [aside:] You can open this and distribute it. [Transl. You also come in. Oh, you didn't get it? Come. *Prasāda*. *Prāpti-mātreṇa bhoktavyaṁ* [[cc/madhya/6/225|[Cc. Madhya 6.225] ]] As soon as you get *prasāda* you should honour it.] **Guest:* [Transl.By spreading Kṛṣṇa Consciousness you have created a revolution in the whole world.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Yes. They say it is a revolutionary movement.] **Guest:** [Transl. It's time for Mahārāja's meal. Ok Mahārāja, I take your leave.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Take them all. Honour it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jaya*. Come again in the evening.] [break] [Transl.Take *Prasāda* all of you. Yes?] Guest [new]: For the worship of...Any worship, we first worship Lord Gaṇeśa, in... **Prabhupāda:** That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire. [Transl. We worship Gaṇeśajī so that our work gets done. We worship Lakṣmījī to get some wealth. Similarly, we worship Śivajī to get a lot of wealth, happiness, comfortable living and a good wife.] There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that "If I approach Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained..." **Guest:** You see, a true devotee of Kṛṣṇa, the first thing he need not go after the demigods? **Prabhupāda:** No, no, no. **Guest:** Secondly... **Prabhupāda:** There is no need. **Guest:** But if he goes after demigods... **Prabhupāda:** If he wants some material profit. [Transl. Those who want wealth, beautiful wife, good food, *sukhāiśvarya prayaccha*: give me happiness, opulence, nice children etc, for them the different demigods worship is recommended. And one who only wants to serve Bhagavān, he has no material necessities.] **Guest:* [Transl.To want to serve Bhagavān is also a necessity.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.No. To want Bhagavān you need Bhagavān only.] **Guest:** [Transl. In Rāmāyaṇa Lord Rama has said, that *śaṅkara bhajan binā nara, bhagati nā pāvahi mori* ...One cannot attain *bhakti* without worshiping Śaṅkara.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl.That is Tulasīdāsa's statement. But *śāstra* does not say so. *Śāstra*, like *Bhagavad-gītā* said,] *kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ* [[bg/7/20|[Bg. 7.20] ]]. [Transl. Those whose intelligence has been lost due to lusty desire they worship the demigods.] **Guest:** [Transl.Come and sit.] **Prabhupāda:** Tulsīdāsa is different; therefore we don't take Tulsīdāsa as authority. **Guest:** No? Ahha. Then, sir, there is Rāma and there is Kṛṣṇa. You have Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Rāma is Hari. Kṛṣṇa is considered Hari. So when you... **Prabhupāda:** No, Rāma... Bhagavān has different forms: *rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan* [Bs. 5.39]. [Transl.Bhagavān has got many expansions.] **Guest:** That's true. So that explains... **Prabhupāda:** *Viṣṇu-tattva*. That is called *viṣṇu-tattva*. **Guest:** In that expansion can't we take Durgā and Śiva, even for... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is *śakti-tattva*. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṇu, and all other tattvas are categories. So *devatās*, they are *śakti-tattva*, *śakti* category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also *devatā*. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya. So qualitatively the ant, you or a learned *brāhmaṇa*, they are all the same category. > vidyā-vinaya-sampanne > brahmaṇe gavi hastini > śuni caiva śva-pāke ca > paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ > [[bg/5/18|[Bg. 5.18] ]] A *paṇḍita* knows that they are on the same *jīva-tattva* categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, *jīva-tattva*, *śakti-tattva*, there are many *tattvas*. Brahman-tattva, Paramātmā-tattva and Bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other *tattvas*, they are *jīva-tattva*, *śakti-tattva*, like that. So Bhagavān is not *jīva-tattva*, but others, they are *jīva-tattva*. Demigods, they are *jīva-tattva*. Brahmā is also *jīva-tattva*. Devī is *śakti-tattva*. *Jīva* is also *śakti-tattva*. In one sense *jīva-tattva* is higher than this material *śakti-tattva*. That is stated in the *Bhagavad-gītā*: > apareyam itas tu > viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāḥ > jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho > yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat > [[bg/7/5|[Bg. 7.5] ]] [Transl. These conclusions you can have only from the *śāstra*.] **Guest:** For meditation, which form should we... **Prabhupāda:** Meditation Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu form. **Guest:* [Transl.The four armed Hari.] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Viṣṇu form is the objective. *Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo*. [Transl. Meditating on the lotus feet of *Viṣṇu-padma*. This is Ṛg *Veda* *mantra*.] *Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam*, like that. **Guest:** But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gītā... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Guest:** ...when Lord has shown His *virāṭ-darśana*: universal form. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Guest:** ...He has shown Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśa, etc. They are all in Him. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Guest:** Subordinate to Him. **Prabhupāda:** You are also in Him. **Guest:** They are subordinate to Him. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Subordinate. Yes. **Guest:** Therefore to meditate on Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa holding a flute. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. To meditate upon Kṛṣṇa is the highest yogic principle. **Guest:** So that's what I asked... **Prabhupāda:** Generally *yogīs*, they observe *viṣṇu-tattva*, generally. **Guest:** For what... **Prabhupāda:** But higher *yogīs*, *bhakta-yogīs*, they see only Kṛṣṇa. **Guest:** Kṛṣṇa. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, *yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā* [[bg/6/47|[Bg. 6.47] ]]. **Guest:** What is fit for we people? Which form should we meditate upon? **Prabhupāda:** For Kali-yuga, this is Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya [[sb/12/3/51|[SB. 12.3.51] ]]. Kali-yuga, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. **Guest:** I asked which form, that is the form... **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa form. **Guest:** Kṛṣṇa form holding *muralī*: flute in His hand? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. *Dvibhuja*: two *armed-muralīdhara*. > veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ > barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda sundarāṅgam > kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ > govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi > [Bs. 5.30] **Guest:** But when you chant "Rāma,'' the other... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Rāma is another... There is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. If you like... **Guest:** The form comes different in the meditation. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, but they are the same. *Rāmādi mūrti.* **Guest:** For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rāma, should you have the form of Rāma before you? **Prabhupāda:** That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavān has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rāma, that's all right. If you love Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. If you love Nārāyaṇa, that is also all right. But Bhagavān *mūrti, rāmādi-mūrtiṣu.* **Guest:** Rāma with Rādhe? Or only with a bow? [laughter] **Prabhupāda:** That is incongruency. Rāma with Sītā. **Guest:** Along with... **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Guest:** Kṛṣṇa, Rāma with Rādhe? **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa with Rādhārāṇī. **Guest:** Then what is Rādhā category? **Prabhupāda:** The same *śakti*. Cit-śakti. [Transl. Bhagavān's pleasure potency.] *Śakti, śakti-tattva*. Sva- *śaktimāna*: Omniscient. Bhagavān is *śaktimāna*, and that *śakti* is Rādhārāṇī or Sītā or Lakṣmī. Durgā is also *śakti*, another feature of Rādhārāṇī. **Guest:** Śakti in original is Rādhā? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. *Parāsya śaktih*..., *parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate* [*Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad* 6.8]. [Transl. God's potencies have many names.] Originally *cit-śakti*. *Cit-śakti.* That *cit-śakti* is expanding. Just like we are..., *rāmādi mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan* [Bs. 5.39]. Kalā means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel. But *rāmādi mūrti*, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that par... They are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part, very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Kṛṣṇa is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So viṣṇu-tattva is almost like Kṛṣṇa. **Guest:** Like Kṛṣṇa. **Prabhupāda:** Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power... **Guest:** Power. **Prabhupāda:** ...the part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are *viṣṇu-tattva*, some of them are *jīva-tattva*, some of them are *śakti-tattva* and some of them *para-tattva*. Like that. **Guest:** *Para-tattva*? **Prabhupāda:** *Para-tattva*. **Guest:** Means? **Prabhupāda:** *Para-tattva* is Bhagavān. Para-tattva means Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu. These are para-tattvas.* [Transl. Bhagavān's avatāra-Rāmā, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, Kūrma, Vāmana. Ten kinds of incarnations. There are many avatāras. All of Them are para-tattvas.] Or *śakti-tattva*, material energy, *aparā-tattva*, matter. Similarly *cit-tattva*, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, *apareyam*. This material energy is inferior. *Itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām* [[bg/7/5|[Bg. 7.5] ]] Beyond this there is another, superior energy, *jīva-bhūta*. That is *jīva*. **Devotee:** Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu... **Prabhupāda:** Hmm. **Devotee:** Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu... **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Devotee:** Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in which category? **Prabhupāda:** He is para-tattva. **Devotee:** And, uh... **Prabhupāda:** Any viṣṇu-tattva is para-tattva. **Guest:** What is definition of* [Transl.mind, heart, intelligence and false ego?] **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Guest:** Some people say that jīva is a, you see, surrounded by [Transl. Mind, heart, intelligence and false ego.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. He is being bewildered by mind and intelligence that I am a product of matter. That is called false. False ego.] He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this *ahaṅkāra*, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that "I am Brahman. I am not matter.'' That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, *brahma-bhūta.*... Now *jīva-bhūta*, but when he becomes *brahma-bhūta*, then he becomes jolly. *Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā* [[bg/18/54|[Bg. 18.54] ]]. That is the symptom. Not that "I am realized Brahman.'' But the symptom will be there. If he says, "I am very rich man,'' then I'll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants, and "Oh, yes, you are rich man.'' And if you are walking on the street with a slipper, how can I accept you? **Guest:** If I am that bad, balancing will not work. [laughter] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Everything has its symptom.] [laughter] [Transl. By symptom you can recognise. If someone says, I am God, We wouldn't accept. Only asses will accept. We will challenge him that if you are God then lift a hill! Build a bridge over the sea! Then we will accept you. We won't accept so cheaply. But ass-like people accept, oh, here is an incarnation of God. He is God. How have you become God? Show us some symptoms. At least display four arms. Nothing of that sort but has become God! And foolish people accept him as God.] **Guest:** [Transl.Mahārāja, what is Bhagavān's *rāsa-līlā*?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. First of all understand what is Bhagavān then understand *rāsa-līlā.* Don't try to understand everything in a single day. Bhagavān's *rāsa-līlā* is very confidential. Just like if you ask a young girl....] **Guest:** We're just asking questions and questions. No problem. Endeavor to understand it. You excuse me. Then we have come to a saint to receive his vibrations. **Prabhupāda:** Bhagavān's *rāsa-līlā* is very confidential. It is not for ordinary men.* [Transl. They will understand it upside down. You are asking and if I answer you will misunderstand it. So such questions are unnecessary. Therefore in the *kaniṣṭha adhikāra*: neophyte stage one should not hear. That is why *rāsa-līlā* is described in tenth canto. Now you see, Akhandanandaji is reciting *Śrīmad* *Bhāgavatam* and he is reciting from the tenth canto. Why? What's wrong with the other nine cantos? Why did you leave them aside? That is not proper. *Śrīmad* *Bhāgavatam* has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten cantos. One should graduate to tenth canto. In the school a student gradually makes progress. Does any student at once go to class ten? Isn't it foolishness? If a student is put into tenth class by skipping first class, second class, third class, and so on, skip the other classes, is it not foolishness? What will he understand? What will he understand? Therefore one should go up step by step. But ordinary people, they think] Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa *rāsa-līla*, Kṛṣṇa with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and *nāṭaka* [drama]. They like it. So these professional *Bhāgavata* readers, they take advantage of the people's inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That's all. **Guest:** That's why I wanted to know... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. They make money. **Guest:** ...the real significance, that spiritual... **Prabhupāda:** The significance..., there is no significance. These professional *Bhāgavata* readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel—a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the *Bhāgavata* Tenth Canto immediately. Their *Bhāgavata* reading is professional, not understanding of Kṛṣṇa. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read *Bhagavad-gītā*, try to understand, and you surrender to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Kṛṣṇa as all in all, *sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam* [[bg/18/66|[Bg. 18.66] ]], then you enter into *Bhāgavata*. *Bhāgavata* is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of *Bhāgavata* we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto..., the nine cantos to understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like in First Canto the beginning, *janmādy asya yataḥ* [[sb/1/1/1|[SB. 1.1.1] ]], *oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ*. This is *Vedānta-sūtra* verse. *Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi.* [Transl. So what is the absolute truth? From Whom this material world comes into existence and remains? Gradually one should understand this. Only the you will achieve perfect knowledge of Kṛṣṇa.] Then you'll understand what is *kṛṣṇa-līlā*. [end]