# Room Conversation — November 7, 1970, Bombay <audio controls preload="metadata" src="https://media.prabhupada.io/audio/1970/701107R1-BOMBAY.mp3"></audio> **Prabhupāda:** These are also done within these five years. **Guest (1):** And that, too, in the foreign countries, to establish that, it is... **Guest (2):** Yes, it's a wonderful thing. I was all the while imagining, imagining... **Prabhupāda:** So I went in USA without any sponsor. No, I... That is the... One gentleman sponsored for one month. One month only. Not even one month; I remained there only three weeks, and then I chalked out my plan. He was my friend's son, and my friend wrote him that "You sponsor Swāmījī for one month." **Guest (1):** Some American gentleman? **Prabhupāda:** No, Indian. One gentleman from Agra. So his son immediately sent me, sponsoring. But still, the government objected that "We cannot allow you to go there, because you are sponsored by an individual person." But I wanted to see chief controller of... what is called, foreign exchange, Mr. Rao. So he kindly accepted: "Yes, Swāmījī, you can go." He fought. [indistinct]. **Guest (2):** That time it was very difficult. Passport I have got already. **Prabhupāda:** Passport, visa. Guest (2):Now, the difficulty is about visa only. Passport I have secured. It's cleared it for three years. The original passport. Now it is easy to get a passport. I do possess. After getting the passport I wrote and corresponded with your... **Prabhupāda:** So there was no money with me, and in an awkward position... My philosophy is completely different. I was to ask them to cease from four kinds of sinful activities, and they are habituated to these things. Illicit sex, and drinking wine, and intoxication and gambling—these are their daily affairs. So I was thinking, "I have to stop this. Who will hear me?" But Kṛṣṇa... Everything became... **Guest (1):** May I ask one thing? How you chose this America to be your first...? **Prabhupāda:** My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "You go and preach this cult amongst the English-speaking public, and specially in the Western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London. But I had no money. So I got the opportunity of going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet. I was well carried. But first of all I went free on a steamship. I had no money, what to speak of aeroplane. So... What was your question? **Guest (1):** My question was that how you selected America to be your first... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So I got the opportunity to go to America because their ship goes to New York. So I accepted, "All right, we can see, either go to London or New York." New York is better place than London. **Guest (1):** I see. There are number of Indians in New York. In New York, Indians are... **Prabhupāda:** No. In London there are many Indians. **Guest (1):** In London, they say, there are about twelve *lakhs* of Indians in London. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. There are many Indians. In the street you will find it is just like ordinary Indian city.* [Transl.Please come in. Sit down together.] **Guest (3):** He's my friend. **Guest (1):** Sit here. He is Mr. Pranlal. He's my old friend. **Guest (4):** We both are coming from* [National] Herald today Delhi. We will go back to Delhi after this Friday. We are interested in this *Gītā-jayantī Mahotsava*, and we shall be more interested in you also. You are coming... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. **Guest (4):** So this is Mr. Sudhir Kumar Sharma. He's an..., a learned man. He has brought this tape recorder. He has come to tape your interview. Last night we met Mr. Jha. Sunil Jha. That Bābājī? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, yes. **Guest (4):** And he has permitted us to take your interview for our paper. So if you don't mind, we shall ask some questions. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Guest (4):** And we'll finish before you go there. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right. No, my men will go. Even if I am a little late, it doesn't matter. [to devotees:] So you go there and join at night. Then I will come in. **Guest (4):** Bābājī asked me to talk about how Svāmī A.C. Bhaktivedanta went to America and you went to America from the last five, six years back and incorporated this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement there. That means to say that it is Kṛṣṇa alone, it is *bhakti* of Kṛṣṇa alone through which you can have God realization, and Kṛṣṇa alone... [indistinct]... servant of Lord Kṛṣṇa and... **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa is God. People are searching after "Where is God?"—but they are missing Kṛṣṇa. That is the dilemma of the present society. **Guest (4):** You have written number of books also and there you speak of [indistinct] volumes are there. It is not only appealing to your eyes but to your heart and to your soul. By the very look of the book, our heart is..., rather, our soul is elated, and we come into that state of mind. Huh? So after reading this, we don't know what stage will come. See how beautiful... I will try to increase my love for these books. At least I should look through. **Guest (5):** [indistinct] Will they be answering in Hindi or English? **Prabhupāda:** Which one? **Guest (5):** This gentleman. You'll be answering in Hindi or English? **Prabhupāda:** As you like. **Guest (5):** They know Hindi. **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Guest (6):** [Transl.They know but can't speak. They know little bit.] **Guest (7):** No, no. If you want to put questions in English, Swāmījī will reply in English. If you want to put in Hindi, I hope... Yesterday I heard him in Hindi, I had the good fortune, and I can say with my understanding that he is equally passed Masters in Hindi, although... [laughter] Yesterday we had the good occasion and the good fortune of hearing him in Hindi as well. [Transl.But disciples...Disciples can speak in English.] **Guest (8):** Disciples will speak English only. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, they do not speak. **Guest (8):** They probably don't know Hindi. **Prabhupāda:** No. **Guest (7):** And I will also give you one song, you see, so that you may have that collection of prayer as a memory for me of my great swāmī, for whom I was always thinking for the last more than six months. Guest (6):** [Transl.Swāmījī, how did you become influenced by Indian philosophy?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. In my childhood my father taught me.] I was born, Vaiṣṇava family. My father was a great devotee. Naturally, he gave me... Oh, I am speaking in Hindi..., English. [Transl. My father taught me about this subject matter. My father gave me Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities when I was a young boy. And I used to worship Them. This is all in my childhood at my house. I used to perform Ratha-yātrā. My father taught me how to play *mṛdaṅga*. So those same things which my father taught me in my childhood that I am preaching in the whole world. In European countries, in the Western countries we are holding Ratha-yātrā. San Francisco, London. You might have seen the picture also. About twenty-five to thirty thousand people attend that. Many foreigners also join. We offer them food, *prasāda*. We have Rādhā-Govinda Deities. We have got 40 to 45 temples. We have Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temples everywhere. These are my disciples. They duly follow the Vedic rules and regulations and proper code of conduct. They always do *kīrtan*. I have given them books. About 12 to 15 big books like this I have given them. They study those day and night. The same principles which my father and my Guru Mahārāja taught me, I am preaching in the west. And I am seeing how the foreigners are accepting and appreciating these spiritual literatures.] Guest (6):* [Transl.So by your preaching they are being attracted to Hindu *dharma*.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. These literatures do not promote Hindu *dharma*. They glorify *kīrtana-dharma*. They have their Chirstian *dharma*, Jew *dharma*.] They are not attracted to the Hindu *dharma*. Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa? **Prabhupāda:** They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. These people, they are* [Transl. attracted to Kṛṣṇa. They are not attracted to Hindu *dharma*. In the western countries they think Hindu *dharma* means many god worshipers. They were told like that. Previously many Swāmīs have preached that Bhagavān is formless, so you can imagine any form. This philosophy was preached. God is formless.] **Guest:** [Transl. But sir, you cannot separate Bhagavān from *dharma*.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Please listen. They have this conception that Hindu philosophy accepts many Gods. People naturally have this impression. Just like in Gītā Bhavan, if any foreigner goes there he will see so many Gods. Bajrāṅgaji is there, Śivajī is there, and others...All are Bhagavān. This kind of Hindu *dharma* they are not attracted to. They were given Kṛṣṇa and they are attracted to Him.] But you are taking Kṛṣṇa as Hindu. That is your mistake. Kṛṣṇa is...* [Transl. Not Hindu.] He is God. He is God. [Transl. God is not Hindu, not Mussulman, not Christian, not Parsi.] God is God. [Transl. That's why they are so much attracted. I am presenting God as it is. I don't preach that there are so many Gods, you are God, he is God. Many *svāmīs* have previously gone there and preached like that. I don't preach like that. Therefore they are not attracted to Hindu *dharma*. Try to understand. They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa.] And I am also not interested to preach Hindu *dharma*. [Transl. What is the use of it? Suppose one man was Mussulman and he was converted to Hindu, so what difference does it make? His mentality remains the same. So what is the use of rubber stamping him as Hindu? Will it help him in anyway just by rubber stamping? We mean *dharma* as] Kṛṣṇa *dharma*. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the only *dharma*. **Guest:** [Transl. Will you then be able to initiate Mussulmans into this Hare Kṛṣṇa?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. We already have many initiated Mussulmans in our society. Many Mussulmans.] **Guest:** [Transl. Are those Mussulmans from India or foreign?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.From foreign.] **Guest:** [Transl. Any example?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. In England, in Germany.] **Guest:** [Transl. They were Mussulman.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Yes, Mussulman.] **Guest:** [Transl. They have joined Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.In other countries also. We have got Christians, Jews, all kinds of people we have got. Just see them. So they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa only. Whatever literatures we have got those are] Kṛṣṇa literature. It is not a Hindu *dharma* literature. [Transl. Hindu *dharma* is too much expansive, thousands] So they are not interested in many gods, Durga, Kali, or Śiva, or...* [Transl. They are all demigods. But *Bhagavad-gītā* as it is which is spoken by Bhagavān, He says, *sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.* [[bg/18/66|[Bg. 18.66] ]] That we preach. What the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa says that abandon all religions and surrender unto Me, that means this alone is real religion. All others are not dharmas if you strictly take this version of *Bhagavad-gītā*.] Otherwise why Bhagavān says that "You give up all religion. Simply you take to the shelter of My lotus feet?" That means to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is the only religion.* [Transl. Kindly try to understand. Bhagavān says that *dharma saṁsthāpanārthāya*, [[bg/4/8|[Bg. 4.8] ]] to re-establish the principles of religion I incarnate Myself. And at the end He declares, *sarva-dharmān parityajya*. So which *dharma* did Kṛṣṇa come to establish? That is *sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja* [[bg/18/66|[Bg. 18.66] ]] **Guest:** [Transl.Respected Svāmījī, when you preach the holy name in the west how faithfully do they accept it? Just like Vivekananda went from India and preached our Hindu *dharma-sanātana* *dharma* and set a prestigious image of India. Similarly what have you accomplished?] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. No, no. He didn't do anything like that. Vivekananda. Where did Vivekananda set a high image of India?] **Guest:** [Transl. Every Indian is proud of his achievement. He is honoured like that.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Nothing like that. Vivekananda actually went to preach Vedānta. And the speech he delivered in Chicago had practically nothing to do with Vedānta. You can study that speech, I don't want to say much about it.] Practically that was against Hindu conception. [Transl. Another thing is Vivekananda went and others also went. Vivekananda went there in 1893 and from 1893 till today is about 80 years. Their mission is going on since 80 years and they have like four or five centres. There are two in New York, one in Los Angeles and other places also. So in 80 years they opened four or five centres. But within three years we have opened about thirty centres. Besides, in their centres, actual American dedicated souls are very meagre. But, in each of our centres, about twenty-five to fifty devotees live. Here is the example in front of you. So now you consider yourself whether by preaching Vedānta people were more benefitted or by preaching *kṛṣṇa-kīrtan* and *Bhagavad-gītā* as it is people are more benefitted.] **Guest:* [Transl.Simply by *kṛṣṇa-kīrtan* the foreigners became attracted to you?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Otherwise why they would have come?] **Guest:** [Transl. Your definition and demonsration of *kṛṣṇa-kīrtan* convinced them?] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. Yes. They gave up everything and live with me. Had they been fools why would they...] **Guest:** [Transl.Don't you have any *gṛhastha* followers?] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl.There are *gṛhasthas*. These are *gṛhasthas*.] **Guest:** [Transl. But they have renounced their life.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Renounced means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa. They gave up their sense gratificatory lifestyle. The *karmīs* in the world want to enjoy everything of the world. This is the struggle everywhere. That's all. And our philosophy is there is nothing to enjoy because nothing belongs to us. This is called renouncement. > īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ > yat kiñca jagatyāṁ jagat > [Śrī Īśopaniṣad mantra 1] Bhagavān says, > bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ > khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca > ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me > bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā > [[bg/7/4|[Bg. 7.4] ]] They are My property. Why are you claiming another's property as yours? Bhagavān says, whatever you see in front of your eyes, what are they? They are earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego. The whole world is made of this. So all these objectes, Bhagavān says, are Mine. My *prakṛti*. So where have you got these things from? Then how can you enjoy? If you steal others property then you are a thief. It is mentioned in the *Bhagavad-gītā* that one who enjoys things without offering them to Bhagavān he is a thief. *Stena eva saḥ ucyate*. [[bg/3/12|[Bg. 3.12] ]] So those who do not believe in Bhagavān and refuse to acknowledge Bhagavān's property they are all thieves. *Stena eva saḥ ucyate.* So how can you expect peace in the society of thieves? Answer?] **Guest:* [Transl. Impossible.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Impossible. According to *Bhagavad-gītā* they are all thieves simply because they are claiming Bhagavān's property as their property. Aren't they be called thief or not? Suppose this photo is mine and you take it away then are you not a thief? Similarly whatever ingredients you have got...Suppose you build a house, what are these? You have mixed earth, water, fire, air etc and constructed the house. But the ingredients you could not create. They belong to Bhagavān. This earth you haven't manufactured.] **Guest:* [Transl. One question I have is if those who have no faith in Bhagavān or Kṛṣṇa Consciousness then how can they attain Bhagavān's shelter?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. If they didn't have faith in Bhagavān then how will they attain Bhagavān?] **Guest:** [Transl. What I mean...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.First of all answer this. If one has no faith in God then how can he attain God?] **Guest:** [Transl. Kṛṣṇa's name or...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. First you answer this that if a person has no faith in God then how will he achieve God?] **Gueat:** [Transl. No, faith is there but...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Just now you said he has no faith.] **Guest:** [Transl. But the holy name they chant in Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, they have faith in God all right, but if they have no faith in God's name then how...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. That is foolishness. That is foolishness that one has faith in God but no faith in God's name. That is utterly foolishness.] Guest (2): [Transl.Svāmījī, in your eyes all scientists are useless.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. What is the benefit? The atom bomb has been created to kill people. That's all.] **Guest:** [Transl. They go beyond that.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. That is there. But being a scientist you cannot *baḍā*: [surpass God]] **Guest:** [Transl. Why there is no need to *baḍā?*] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. No, no. There is no question of fear. We are not talking of *ḍar*.] We are talking of Love. Why you misunderstand? Don't misunderstand the philosophy. We are teaching love of Godhead. It is not we are teaching that you become afraid of God* [Transl. Afraid, those who are enemies of God they will be afraid. Just like Prahlāda...]. [break] [Transl. ...he was not afraid of seeing the Lord's fearful form. He was peaceful. A devotee of the Supreme Lord is never afraid of the Lord. He climbs upon the Lord's shoulder.] **Guest:** [Transl. Arjuna also asked the Lord in the *Bhagavad-gītā* to change His ghastly form.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. Yes. Because, Arjuna was Lord's intimate friend. He was not familiar with the universal form which was displayed to him. He said, I don't want to see this form. A devotee wants to see the Lord's original form-two handed flute player Kṛṣṇa. That form he loves.] Guest (2): [Transl. Svāmījī, what steps have you taken to popularise Kṛṣṇa's name?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Kṛṣṇa's name is Kṛṣṇa only. Kṛṣṇa's name. We are trying in different ways to canvass Kṛṣṇa's name everywhere that you all chant Kṛṣṇa's name. This is the alternative. What else can be done? Just like a rascal is flattered to get some job done out of him, that same thing we are doing. *Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya* [*Śrī Caitanya Candrāmṛtam* 90] I fall at your feet, I flatter you with folded hands kindly hear my humble submission. This is what I have done. What else? Did I frighten them? I simply requested them to please come and hear what I have to say. And by hearing, hearing they became devotees! This is the only way. Somehow or other call them and make them hear with attention. Let them hear and take *prasādam* of the Lord. And let them dance. What is the difficulty? It is very easy process.] You come, sing, dance, and take *prasādam*. Is there any difficulty? If people come to us, in melodious songs they sing and they dance and when they are tired they take sumptuously *prasādam*, so what can be the more convenient way?* [Transl. This is exactly what we do.] **Guest:** [Transl.Apart from chanting Kṛṣṇa's name can't we do anything else?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. What else can we do? In Kali-yuga the living entities are so fallen that they cannot practice anything else.] **Guest:** [Transl. That's right.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. They cannot meditate. They cannot practice breathing exercise. They cannot understand Vedānta. Nor can they perform ritualistic sacrifices, nothing. He is already in distress. And to perform lavish and extensive sacrifice he hasn't got money. You yourself can understand it that though you want to do many things,] you are a qualified lawyer, but you cannot do for want of money. [Transl. If this is the situation of you then what to speak of the fools who don't know anything, what can they do? In the muscle of Kali-yuga there is no strength to anything else. Therefore this scriptural injunction that *harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva* has to be followed. By this process alone everything will be successful. There is no expenditure, no difficulty and this is the only means of deliverance given in the *śāstra*.] **Guest:** [Transl. Some learned persons say that you must work first for food because without food you cannot survive so...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. They are not learned, they are fools.] **Guest:** [Transl. Just by chanting Rāma Rāma, will Rāma supply my...] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. The answer is that he is not learned, he is fool number one. He doesn't know what is name. And he is commenting on the holy name.] He has no right because he does not know what is name. *Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ*. [Transl. You call him learned! Had he been a learned he would have understood the *śāstra*. > nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś > caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ > pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto > 'bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ > [Cc Madhya17.133 / Padma Purāṇa] [Transl. The holy name of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself are non-different. He doesn't know it then how is he a learned! He is a fool. He does not even know what is holy name. Did you understand or not? You were saying learned. A learned person supposed to know everything. He does not know what is holy name then how he is learned? He is a fool. So what will you gain by a fool's words? *Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām*. The real learned is Vyāsadeva who compiled the *sātvata-saṁhitā-Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*. *Lokasya ajānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām* [[sb/1/7/6|[SB. 1.7.6] ]] He alone is *vidvān-Vyāsadeva*.] **Guest:** [Transl. Only *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* and *Bhagavad-gītā* teach *dharma*?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. There are many types of *dharma*. *Sāttvika-dharma*, *rājasika-dharma*, *tāmasika-dharma*.] **Guest:** [Transl. Just like other *dharmas* have their literatures and they teach good principles...] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. All right. That's all right. I accept that every *dharma* has certain principles. Just like Mussulmans have got their *dharma*, Christians have their *dharma* and there is Vedic *dharma*. So according to these qualities of *sattva*, *rajaḥ*, and *tamaḥ* of this world there are different *dharmas*. All are not on the same level. Some people are in the mode of darkness, some are in the mode of goodness and some are in the mode of passion. Therefore there is *tāmasika-dharma*, *rājasika-dharma* and *sāttvika-dharma*. Just like to worship goddess Kali and sacrifice got before her is also there in our Vedas. It is also *dharma*.] **Guest:** [Transl. But then how to follow the injunction of the *śastra*? Those who cannot give up.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. Follow...These are recommended for those who want to eat meat.] **Guest:** [Transl. Basically eating meat is prohibited?] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Because you will be responsible, if you cut throat of a goat, then you'll be responsible. Just like in your jurist[?] law, if you commit murder-you are lawyer-you have to be hanged. So, [Transl. Why don't you understand that even in the ordinary state law the judgement is] "life for life." So I am killing one life. I shall not be liable to repay by my life. Guest (4): But then why the Vedas allow us to eat the meat of goat and other animals? **Prabhupāda:** That is to restrict. Just like government opens liquor shop. That does not mean government is encouraging to drink. Those who are drunkard, going create disturbance, for them there is little concession. But they are responsible. If they become drunkard and causes some disturbance in the street, then he will be arrested by the police. He cannot say, "Oh, I have paid for the bottle." **Guest:** [Transl. Svāmījī, why don't you arrange some programs in the schools and colleges. Will you please allow me?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Schools and colleges, but you first help the teachers of the schools and colleges. Schools and colleges are filled with children. So arrange something for the teachers.] **Guest:** [Transl.Should I do it?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. They think, this is not for us.] [indistinct discussion among guests about how to take Prabhupāda for program.] The *bhakti* is all-inclusive. [Transl.And in the knowledge of Bhagavān, *Brahma-jñāna* and *Paramātmā-jñāna*, are included. *Brahmeti* *paramātmeti* *bhagavān iti śabdyate*. Brahma, Paramātma and Bhagavān is *advaya-jñāna*: the nondual substance, the absolute truth.] > vadanti tat tattva-vidas > tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam > brahmeti paramātmeti > bhagavān iti śabdyate > [[sb/1/2/11|[SB. 1.2.11] ]] [Transl. *Jñāna*. First *Brahma-jñāna*, then *Paramāma-jñāna*, then comes *Bhagavad-jñāna*: the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That means one who possesses *Bhagavad-jñāna*, he automatically knows *Brahma-jñāna* and *Paramātma-jñāna*. You understand? But one who has *Brahma-jñāna* he does not have *Bhagavad-jñāna*. Similarly one who has *Paramāma-jñāna* he too does not have *Bhagavad-jñāna*.] **Guest:** [Transl. What is *Brahma-jñāna*?] **Prabhupāda:** *Brahma-jñāna* means... Just like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun disc. But both of them are light. Guest (9): The *brahma-jñāna* has got a limited jurisdiction. **Prabhupāda:** It is these things that... This is the... Just like ordinary...* [Transl. You know sunlight is huge, vast. But the source from which the sunlight is emanating is small.] **Prabhupāda:** > yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi- > koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam > tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa bhūtaṁ... > [Bs. 5.40] [Indistinct discussion among guests about *Bhagavad-gītā* etc.] **Guest:** [Transl. Correct. The origin is...] *Brahma niṣkalam anantam...* [Transl. The limitless effulgence is called nonvariegated Brahma. And the origin of this is Bhagavān. What is *jñāna*?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Jñāna, Brahma-jñāna...] **Guest:** [Transl. *Brahma-jñāna* then *Bhagavad-jñāna*.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. *Brahma-jñāna* then *Paramātma-jñāna*. *Paramātma-jñāna* is meant for the *yogīs* and *Brahma-jñāna* is for the *jñānīs* and *Bhagavad-jñāna* is for the *bhaktas*.] Guest (9): Different stages? Are there different stages? **Prabhupāda:** Different features. Different features. Just like Sūryaloka and Sūryadeva and *Sūrya-raśmi*: light. [Transl. Sunshine is *Brahma-jñāna*, Sun globe is *Paramātma-jñāna* and Sun god is *Bhagavad-jñāna*.] Guest (9): I see. **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. All three are one. All are one, but different stages. So the first stage is *Brahma-jñāna, Brahma-bhūta. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā*. [[bg/18/54|[Bg. 18.54] ]] He is embarrassed by the sufferings of this material world. But when he realises I am brahma-spirit soul he becomes happy. *Brahma-bhūta* *prasannātmā*, the living entity becomes joyful. *Ahaṁ* *brahmāsmi* . Then he becomes liberated.] Guest (9): You have to try to come in second *arya*[?]. **Prabhupāda:** Then second, *paramātmā-jñāna*. Then *bhagavad-jñāna*. [break] Guest (9): [Transl. They are reading *Bhagavad-gītā* but driving away Kṛṣṇa. They are eliminating Bhagavān. They make Him zero.] **Prabhupāda:* [Transl. Let them eat zero. Actually that is happening now. And here we have removed zero and worshiping Kṛṣṇa. They have become happy. All zeros have been removed. *Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra.* [[sb/1/1/2|[SB. 1.1.2] ]] Without accepting the real *dharma* whatever other *dharmas* are passing on as *dharma*, they are all cheating. And in his commentary on this verse Śrīdhara Svami has said, *atra mokṣa-vāñchā api nirasta*. [break] [Transl. *Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo'tra*, desire for liberation is also cheating. I will become liberated, I will become one with God–this mentality has been kicked out. And *bhakti* is *jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam*. [*Cc Madhya* 19.167/ *Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu* 1.1.11] *Jñāna* and *Karma* have no jurisdiction on *bhakti*. It is pure.] **Guest:* [Transl. No need of *karma*?] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. *Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam* *ānukūlyena* *kṛṣṇānu-* ..., only serving Kṛṣṇa favourably is pure *bhakti*.] That is *bhakti*. That is the pure *bhakti*. [Transl. And in *Nārada-bhakti-sūtr*a it is stated *anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ* ...No, *sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ* [*Cc Madhya* 19.170/ From *Nārada Pañcarātra* found in the *Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu* 1.1.12] First of all become free from all material designations. These are also designations, I am *sannyāsī*, I am *brāhmaṇa*. This is also designation. I am Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Mussulman–these are also designations. When one becomes freed from all designations and completely becomes Kṛṣṇa Conscious, in that state, one engages in devotional service with purified senses to the Supreme Lord who is the master of the senses. So long you are engrossed with material designations that this is my family, my family members, I belong to this country,my responsibility and so on so on, you cannot achieve liberation.] Guest (9): It is very difficult to give up.... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. It is difficult, but there is way. Guest (9): ...unless there is some guidance. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So this is *upādhi*. [Transl. When I went to America to preach devotional service to the Supreme Lord if I would have preached Hindu *dharma* mixed with designations then none of them would have accepted it. That is mixed with *upādhi*.] I identify myself as Hindu. Yes. Then they would not have not accepted. They would have said, "We have got Christianity. Why should I accept your Hinduism?"* [Transl. They were given Kṛṣṇa unadulterated.] Guest (9): This sort of distinction was not also clear to us, but now, after hearing you this morning... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Guest (9): ...and your guidance has cleared it [Transl.otherwise I would also have identified as one of these and have the same consciousness.] **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Now, if you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism? They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism and Muhammadanism; we are talking on the science of God. Guest (9): The true philosophy. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh, they have accepted, there: "Yes, here it is right conception." Yes. Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. **Prabhupāda:** Back to Godhead. Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. [conversation among Indians about BTG's] I distributed what I got. **Prabhupāda:** No, I shall arrange to distribute. I am getting fifty thousand Back to Godheads. Fifty thousand. I shall distribute. **Guest:** [Transl. No, no. Selling is the proper use. That is what I want.] [break] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl.Unadulterated Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is without any designation.] We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of them. Kṛṣṇa says, claims, that "Every living entity is My part and parcel. I am the seed-giving father." So therefore it has become successful. I never said that "You become a Hindu." "You accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy." What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God. Oh, that they have been taught. Guest (9): They are accepting God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. [Transl.And here in India they say, why should we accept Kṛṣṇa as God? This is the difficulty.] That's why they are puzzled although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India. Guest (9): We don't think that He belongs to particular place or religion. **Prabhupāda:** That's... They do not understand Kṛṣṇa. **Guest:** [Transl. That's totally wrong.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. Kṛṣṇa has also given a befitting reply to them. *Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā* [[bg/9/11|[Bg. 9.11] ]] Rascals and ass-like people think Kṛṣṇa as an ordinary man like themselves. He clearly called them *mūḍhā*.] **Guest:** [Transl.Yes. Fools.] **Prabhupāda:** [Transl. *Mūḍhā* means ass. So how can an ass understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa one has to practice some austerity and become perfect. *Yatatām api siddhānāṁ*. [[bg/7/3|[Bg. 7.3] ]] One has to become perfect. Then he will understand Kṛṣṇa. And that will take many lifetimes. *Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante* [[bg/7/19|[Bg. 7.19] ]] But if don't remain a fool but accept Kṛṣṇa's words then you will attain Him. What is the need of waiting many lifetimes? If after many lifetimes I will have to come to Kṛṣṇa then why not I grab His lotus feet now? Then your life will be successful.] Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence. Guest (9): But you should be... **Prabhupāda:** There is no question of "should be." When Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you protection," why "should be"? You don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says, *ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa* [[bg/18/66|[Bg. 18.66] ]]. You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa's capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Guest (9): But in a part of the one form... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? Guest (9): But it is a part of one form [indistinct] **Prabhupāda:** What is that? Guest (2): He means that is beyond his capacity to understand Him. **Prabhupāda:** What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable? Guest (9): No, believe Him as you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him. Or you believe that you are a son to Him. **Prabhupāda:** No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. Guest (9): No entry. **Prabhupāda:** No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. *Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa* [[bg/7/27|[Bg. 7.27] ]]. [Transl. The material world is] *bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate* [[bg/8/19|[Bg. 8.19] ]] Creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facility. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility." So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of a stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world. And when he comes back again, back to Godhead, *yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama* [[bg/15/6|[Bg. 15.6] ]]. Then you'll haven't got to come back. *Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya* [[bg/4/9|[Bg. 4.9] ]]. So we have to prepare for that position, how to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourself in His service. Then the question of either as mother or friend or... That will be considered later on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is condition, *sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ* [[bg/18/66|[Bg. 18.66] ]], that "You surrender unto Me fully, giving up all your other engagement. Then I take charge of you." *Ahaṁ tvāṁ* *mokṣayiṣyāmi*. *Mokṣa* is there. For a *kṛṣṇa-bhakta* is nothing, *mokṣa*, or liberation. He'll do it. He'll look after it. **Guest (9):** Thank you very much. **Prabhupāda:** [aside:] Ready? All right. [end]