# Part 7: Progress and Revolution ## Ugra-karma in the Factory New Vrindaban June 26, 1976 Bhagavad-Gītā Chapter 16: Lecture **Hellish factories, fresh fields...women and children must be supplied necessitiesPrabhupāda:** *Ugra-karmāṇaḥ*[engaged in painful activities," from*Bg.*[[bg/16/9|16.9]]: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world"],**the factory. This is*ugra-karma*. Pradyumna was describing*ugra-karma*, hellish. Little*karma*, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient. What is the use of opening big, big factory?*Ugra-karma*. What it has helped?** You were talking on behalf of them. What it has helped? **Keeping them. Innocent men, women, they are kept in that factory simply for livelihood. A little work will provide his needs. Nature has given so much facility. They can grow little food anywhere. The cows are there in the pasturing ground. Take milk and live peacefully. Why you open factories? What is the use? Keeping them in hellish condition of life.**So this is the description. Now discuss these points. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** You say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they engage in unbeneficial horrible works meant to destroy the world and that this refers to the atomic weapons. This is so true. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, God's speaking, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:I was studying this nuclear energy in college, thinking that it would save the world.**That by the energy they could make bigger tomatoes, bigger corn, and... **Prabhupāda:Bigger deaths. Conclusion is bigger deaths.** Everything big. One man was dying, now many hundreds of thousands will die. Bigger deaths. You did not consider it bigger death? **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** It was very frustrating, though, because for everything they were trying to do good, they found so many more things bad were coming. **Prabhupāda:**That is...***Karma jagat*means that if you have to raise this house, then you have to cut the wood somewhere. You have to destroy somewhere, and then you can make house.**You have to adjust things like that. You cannot create. This house was constructed, created, by destroying somewhere else. Is it not? So where is your creation?**Creation is God's creation. He has created everything, and if you want to create, you have to destroy somewhere. That is*karma*.Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:**Sometimes these people are called*duṣkṛtina*. And you've mentioned that the*duṣkṛtina*, actually he has some intelligence, misused. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Intelligence. After destroying the wood, you use your intelligence to construct this house.**You have intelligence, there is no doubt. Human being must have intelligence. But that**intelligence is given to him for getting out of the clutches of birth, death, old age and disease. He's not utilizing that intelligence for that purpose, therefore*duṣkṛtina*.**Intelligence he has got. We don't say that modern world, they are unintelligent, fools. No, they have got intelligence. But the intelligence is being utilized for*duṣkarya*, which he should not have done.*Duṣkarya*.*Karya*and*duṣkarya*—work and bad work. His intelligence was given so that he could get relief from these clutches of birth, death, old age and disease, but that he's not utilizing. He's opening factory and creating another bad atmosphere. Therefore*duṣkṛtina*. To open a factory requires intelligence. So many machine is working, that's all right, but how this intelligence being used? To keep man in a hellish condition of life. Therefore*duṣkṛtina*... **Hari-śauri:** Fifty years ago they were thinking it was progress to build big skyscrapers; now it's so hellish in the cities, everybody is moving out. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. Actually, when there are so many skyscraper buildings, it is hell. The natural air is obstructed. In Bombay you'll see. If you are in the top floor you have got little facility; in the lower floor it is hell. If there are several skyscraper building, in the first floor, second floor, it is simply hell. No air. Simply you have to run on this electric fan. You cannot see the sky. Therefore it is meant skyscraper? What is scraper? What is the meaning? **Hari-śauri:** It touches, touching the sky. **Prabhupāda:** So you have touched the sky in such a way I cannot see even. (laughs) This is the result. You demon, you have captured the sky, so I have no opportunity to see even. Always electric light. **Now we see the sky, the sun, how nice it is. This is life. Green, down and up, clear sky, sun, this is life. We get rejuvenation in this atmosphere. What is this nonsense, all skyscraper building, no air, no light?*Jagato 'hitāḥ*. The mind becomes crippled, the health becomes deteriorated, children cannot see even the sky, everything is spoiled.Kulādri:** Every day in the city they make a report, pollution report. And they say you should go outside or not go outside. Some days it is not good for your health to leave your home. **Devotee:** They are also selling fresh air, Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** Fresh air? (laughter) Fresh water, also. **Hari-śauri:** In Tokyo there are special machines you can get air, clean water. **Prabhupāda:** Fresh, by cleaning the urine? Now they are doing that. Fresh water by cleaning urine. Fat derived from stool. Yes, German people did it. Fat extracted from stool. Scientifically. You can use it with butter very nicely on your bread. This is going on. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:Some of the materialists may argue that these activities are not all that unbeneficial. For example, they have made a tractor, and in America they can produce so many grains, so much so that practically they could feed the world.Prabhupāda:Why do they not?Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Because their mentality is very abominable. **Prabhupāda:Do that. There are so many overpopulation, and you can do it in America.** So much land lying vacant here. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Better to put the people in factories in the fields. If they are going to work, let them work growing grain and milking the cows.Prabhupāda:Yes, then they will live very happily.**That will not do.*Jagato 'hitāḥ*. Read it. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** *Kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ.*[For the destruction of the world" from*Bg.* [[bg/16/9|16.9]]: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world.] **Prabhupāda:*Kṣayāya*,*kṣayāya*means all for ruination, bringing ruin, ruination. So save them from ruination...Prabhupāda:**Mm. (pause)**So you don't require covering? This girl? This cloth is sufficient?** What you think? Why you have no covering? Mm? You do not require cloth? **Kulādri:** It is warm for us Śrīla Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:**No, if they require, there must be supply.**You must ask them what they need and provide them because they do not say you'll also keep silent.**That's not good. Every month they must be asked what they need. Necessities, they must be supplied.**We have already discussed this point, the women, they require protection, children, women. Vedic Civilization is Training, Washington, D.C., July 8, 1976: Evening Dar *śana* --- ## Illusionary Progress Mauritius, October 3, 1975 - Morning Walk **Illusiory progress...simple agrarian life-oppressive factory lifePrabhupāda:Simply a little high standard of living, and they think this is advancement.**And the Western civilization is influencing all other parts of the world in that way—"Improve the standard of living." There is no improvement, but it is*māyā*; they are thinking, "This is improvement." **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Progress. **Prabhupāda:**Progress, yes.**The progress is that they have got motorcar, and they have progressed how to die quickly.**This is the progress. At any moment he can die. As soon as he on the car, 70 miles speed, that means taking the risk of dying at any moment. This is the progress.**Formerly people were going in bullock cart or horse carriage from one village to another. "That was primitive. Now we can go hundred miles away from home for earning money and taking risk to die at any moment. That is progress."**Is it not? **Brahmānanda:** Oh, yes. **Prabhupāda:Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life.** That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:**There is one small coal mining town we did*saṅkīrtana* at, an Indian community. And they were thinking that "The coal mine is doing everything for us. They're giving us schools, they're giving us medicine, they're giving us... Without the coal mine where would we be?" **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Brahmānanda:** Here they think it's sugarcane. The sugarcane is everything. **Prabhupāda:** Giving everything. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Why can't people understand to depend on Kṛṣṇa? **Prabhupāda:**That is*māyā*. They Will be Atracted by Our Training Power, Mauritius, October 5, 1975: Room Conversation --- ## Kṛṣṇa Consciousness: The Peaceful Revolution Johannesburg, October 16, 1975 - Morning Walk **Work God's land, pay taxes to his saintly king...all social orders need training...education: Vedic versus modern...good and bad work...paper money, gold, and real goods...Kṛṣṇa consciousness: the peaceful revolutionPrabhupāda:**Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice.**So at least, if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfort able, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent?**We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to... **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard?**The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization.**Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization.**And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Matchbox also. **Prabhupāda:** Matchbox. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.Prabhupāda:It is hell. And we are creating this hell.Harikeśa:** I don't know. I'm enjoying. **Prabhupāda:** You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter)... **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** If nothing is our property—in fact, everything is Kṛṣṇa's property—why is there this desire to possess so many things? **Prabhupāda:**Possess, you can possess.*Tena tyaktena bhuṣjithā*. [Īśo mantra 1]: "...One should...accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.] The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God's representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men's foodstuff. You calculate the ten men's foodstuff, for producing, you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food.**And because it is God's property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production—no tax.**This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God's land. You cannot... Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter; where there is overpopulation? How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they're overpopulation. Why don't you allow them, that "In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully"? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascal, rogues? For want of God consciousness.**They do not know that it is God's property, falsely thinking, "My property." And today I am thinking, "My property,"**and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smuts? Who can say? Maybe he was Smuts; now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature's process.*Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ*[Bg [[bg/2/13|2.13]]]. After death you'll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smuts did not accept a dog's body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kṛṣṇa does not say like that.*Tathā dehān tara-prāptiḥ*. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that "Mr., General Smuts has got now this body. He is living here"? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, "My father is gone." Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, "My father is gone." Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge. **Harikeśa:** It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality... **Prabhupāda:**No, not... Yes, whole world. He must be*rājarṣi*, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa.**He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?Harikeśa:** What about those people who don't want to work? They are lazy. **Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Harikeśa:** What about lazy people? **Prabhupāda:**Let them become*śūdra*. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal. **Harikeśa:** How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given? **Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Harikeśa:** How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king... **Prabhupāda:** Beginning Kṛṣṇa. **Harikeśa:** No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of... **Prabhupāda:**No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read*Bhagavad-gītā*? You do not know? **Harikeśa:** No, no. Yes. **Prabhupāda:** What is the social arrangement? What is that? **Harikeśa:** That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas. **Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something.**They have to be doing some activity... **Prabhupāda:** No, no. **Harikeśa:** ...so you can see what kind of quality they have. **Prabhupāda:**No, no.**Take "everyone is rascal," then train them.**That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are*brāhmaṇa*by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as*brāhmaṇa*, classify him in the*brāhmaṇa*. One is trained up as*kṣatriya*, classify him. In this way,*cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ...* **Harikeśa:**And that*kṣatriya*would engage everyone basically as*śūdra* and then pick from them. **Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Harikeśa:** He would initially pick... **Prabhupāda:**No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as*śūdra*. Then... **Harikeśa:** Pick out. **Prabhupāda:**Pick out. And rest, who is neither*brāhmaṇa*nor*kṣatriya*nor*vaiśya*, then he is*śūdra*.**That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man.**There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force.*Śūdra* is also required. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture? **Prabhupāda:**There is no need of money.**The*brāhmaṇa*teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money.**Anyone can take education as a*brāhmaṇa*or a*kṣatriya*, as a*vaiśya*. There is no...*Vaiśya*doesn't require any education.*Kṣatriyas*require little.*Brāhmaṇa*require. But that is free.**Just find out a*brāhmaṇa guru*and he will give you free education.**That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as...**At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.Harikeśa:** So the incentive is the happiness in society? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is... Everyone is hankering after: "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply? **Devotee:** They lack central happiness? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He'll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he'll say, "First of all work. Then get your food." He'll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** That is the incentive, then. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Devotee:** Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all. **Harikeśa:** Chopping rocks. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Otherwise whipping. In*Bhagavad-gītā* it is recom mended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** How is that? **Prabhupāda:** Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work. **Harikeśa:** "Action is better than inaction." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, yes. Yes. **Harikeśa:** A man cannot even keep his own body in shape. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. (laughter) **Harikeśa:**I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect*varṇāśrama* society; government is taken care of... **Prabhupāda:** Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care? **Harikeśa:** When it is properly set up. **Prabhupāda:** First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People's government. **Harikeśa:** How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals... **Prabhupāda:**The*brāhmaṇas*, the*brāhmaṇas*will give you medical help.*Āyur-Veda*. They will read*Āyur-Veda*. They will give help. **Harikeśa:**So the*Āyur-Veda* possibly can work nowadays. **Prabhupāda:** Why not? **Harikeśa:** Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga. **Prabhupāda:** Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living? **Harikeśa:** No. **Prabhupāda:** Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money? **Harikeśa:** So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money. **Prabhupāda:** Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see. Devotee: They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it... **Prabhupāda:** That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you. **Harikeśa:** How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed? **Prabhupāda:** Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper. **Harikeśa:** But you have to do something to get it. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain.**Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all.Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is called bartering.Prabhupāda:Bartering. So there is no need of money.**Similarly, you go to another shop. You get. So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. Somebody is producing something, somebody is producing something. But it can be done. Suppose I am a blacksmith. You want some work from me. So you say that "I'll make this instrument for me." So I say, "You give me one kg paddy." So you give me one kg, I prepare you, so your necessity is fulfilled.**Now I have got so much paddy. Now, I may go to purchase something else because I am blacksmith, so grains will be used for my eating, and for, say for*ghee*, I take the same grain somewhere. So where is the money need of?Harikeśa:** It's very difficult to cheat in that system. It's very difficult to cheat. **Prabhupāda:** Cheat? **Harikeśa:** In a system of bartering it's very hard to cheat. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. There is no cheating. Everyone is simply simple, honest. And here the government begins cheating. He is engaging you to hard work day and night and paying you a piece of paper, where it is written "one hundred dollars." That's all. This is your society, cheating and cheater. That's all. **Harikeśa:** People have a hard time understanding that point, because with a hundred dollar note you can buy things. **Prabhupāda:** Therefore I say you are all rascals. You do not know. If I say, the government may arrest me that I am infusing people in a different way. But that is the fact. **Harikeśa:** So a government's duty would be to abolish this false standard of money, and then automatically... **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Government's only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax: "Whatever I produce, take one fourth." Finish. All taxes. If I don't produce, there is no tax.** That's all. That is the business between the government and the public. That's all. **Harikeśa:** If the public are giving like one quarter of a perishable item, what does the government do with that? Let's say they were growing some vegetables, so they give one quarter of that to the government. What would the government do with that? They've got so many tons of vegetables. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Harikeśa:** And everybody is taken care of, because they are growing it. **Prabhupāda:After all, vegetable will be eaten by somebody. So let government distribute there.**Vegetable, grains, fruits, milk,*ghee*, yogurt, natural produce—they will be used by somebody.**The government may store and distribute, those who are in need.**That's all. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Maybe somebody is only producing gold or gold plates, or somebody is producing something that isn't food. So he would give that to the government. **Prabhupāda:** Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:**Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that,*śūdras* who are doing that. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.*Śūdras*, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on.**At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government—"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry: "Oh, all right." He declares war.Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** So complex. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British Empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor?**And then find out market, and when there is competi tion, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily?**Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians?*Anartha*. Therefore it is called*anartha*, unnecessary.*Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje*[SB [[sb/1/7/6 1972|1.7.6]]].**As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things.**They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition.**You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on.** Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Prabhupāda:** That's it, only solution. **Harikeśa:It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government.*Varnāśrama-dharma*is the only thing that will work.Prabhupāda:Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government.Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. No,**first of all, the government is cheating. He is giving me paper in the name of money, and forcing me to accept it.Harikeśa:** That seems to be the root cause of... **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Government is taking labor from you. You ask, "If you pay me three hundred dollars, then I shall work." "All right, I shall give you. Work." Then what is that three hundred? I print and pay you, and you rascal, you accept it, three hundred dollars.**What is that three hundred dollars for government? Printing press.**And you are so rascal, "Yes, I have got now three hundred dollars." This is going on. This is artificial inflation. Why there is inflation? Now you have got three hundred dollars without any hard labor. And when you go to purchase—I haven't got three hundred dollars; you have got—"All right, I shall pay this price."**So price is increased because the seller will see: "Who pays me large price?" So you have got unnecessary money. You offer him large price. So I am poor man; I could not purchase.**This is going on. **Harikeśa:** There was once a few plots exposed, how some governments were ruined because foreign governments were printing up money just like their money, and shipping it in. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. I have seen it. I have seen it during last wartime. One Chinese man was coming to one of my friends, my business friend. So he would give, immediately coming, a bunch of notes, maybe ten thousand. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Indian notes? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And a list of goods. He was his purchasing agent. So that bunch of notes was printed in China. You see? And he brings it and gives to a merchant here, and he gives him real goods, and he takes it out. This is inflation. **Devotee:** Could he spend that money? **Prahupada:** Yes. I print ten thousand dollars' worth currency note, and I give you, and I take you, actual goods from you, anywhere. **Harikeśa:** The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing, they will offer you, "You want coins or paper currency?" So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Gold coins. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, gold, silver, whatever you want. That was the... Now this is stopped. You can not ask now gold coins and silver coins. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. Where is honesty? **Devotee:** Śrīla Prabhupāda, in South Africa they have a coin called the Krugerrand. And one rand is worth one hundred cents, one rand of paper money. But one rand gold is worth about seventy-eight rand. **Prabhupāda:** Just see. **Devotee:** It's constantly going up and down, the price. Hundred and eight. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Here is the car, Śrīla Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** Everything mismanaged, cheating. **Harikeśa:** So until the top man is Kṛṣṇa conscious, this cheating will basically continue. **Prabhupāda:** Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings. The minister, the secretaries, the under-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on. **Harikeśa:** They can pay them with their phony money. **Prabhupāda:** And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That's all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, "All right, give me an application." And after six months' reminding, he will say, "No, it is not possible." **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:** Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That's a fact. Then he will put his son there. **Prabhupāda:** All rogues and thieves. **Harikeśa:** So actually it is not possible to change the... **Prabhupāda:** Change—if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious. **Harikeśa:** But the system itself is defective. How can... **Prabhupāda:No, the defective will be correct when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical.Harikeśa:** Let's say somebody is a minister... **Prabhupāda:** Anybody. **Harikeśa:** ...but his occupation is cheating. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business. **Harikeśa:** But he has to stop. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:**Yes.*Rājarṣi*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee. **Harikeśa:**So then gradually it will become the*varṇāśrama*, with the one central head. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Harikeśa:So we don't try to make a revolutionary system.Prabhupāda:This is revolution.Harikeśa:We try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution.Prabhupāda:Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand.** (break) (in car) ...perfect philosophy. **Harikeśa:** Your method is also the perfect method, the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and... Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Everything is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I am simply putting them for modern man's understanding. That's all. Good Government Means Good Training, Māyāpur, March 1976: Declaring Our Dependence on God --- ## Eskimo Self-sufficiently Rome, May 28, 1974 - Morning Walk **Live locally...set the example of how to be idealDhanaṣjaya:** In Greenland? **Prabhupāda:** Others cannot live locally. **Satsvarūpa:**That's not their*karma*? **Prabhupāda:**No,*karma*is there. That is another point.**My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?Satsvarūpa:** One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow. **Prabhupāda:**No.**They may go sometimes.**Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking.**It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country.**That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective. **Dhanaṣjaya:** But people say they travel for education. **Prabhupāda:**What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education...**You have created this animal civilization.**Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result.**Now you have to reform them.**That reformation is Kṛṣṇa con sciousness.**So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see.**You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life.**So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient.** That is required. Food Grains or Factories?, April 3, 1975, Māyāpur: Morning Walk --- ## They Will be Atracted by Our Training Power Mauritius, October 5, 1975 - Room Conversation **Become "self-independent"...the power of purity... mouse-and-snake story...people will be attracted by our "training power"Prabhupāda:**And gradually, when you are well behaving, then you shall be initiated to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa*mantra*. That will give you strength, spiritual power. Strictly observe the regulative principles—no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. It is very simple. Read these literatures, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa*mantra*, and observe these regulations. Then you will become gradually powerful. Your speeches will be effective. People will like you. **Guest (2) (Indian man):** Now the program in the village, Swamijī, how to... **Prabhupāda:Village... Just like you acquire some land. That you will get. It is not very... Is it difficult?Guest (2):** No, sir. **Prabhupāda:**Just we are doing so many places.**So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows.**Keep cows, as many cows as possible, and produce, till the ground, field, and make water supply arrangement.**If the investment is required, we shall do that. You have no worry about investment. We shall bring money from anywhere.**But the work must be done very nicely.**There must be good arrangement for water supply and for plowing and keeping the cows in order.**Then you get sufficient milk, sufficient food grains and produce your own cloth. The girls and ladies, they can spine (spin) thread, and from the thread you make cloth, handlooms. So your first necessities of life, eating, and make little cottage, sleeping... And if you want sex, get yourself married, live peacefully. And when you are there you can defend yourself. So the first necessity is how to eat and how to cover. That you have to provide. That is not difficult. You can do it.**And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance.**And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have... Go on chanting, offering*prasādam*.**You have got your food grains. Don't be dependent on anyone else. Become self-independent. And don't be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life.** Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, read book. Then you'll grow strong. Is there any difficulty? **Guest (1):** No, Swamijī. **Guest (2):** To bring more people in our movement... **Prabhupāda:**They should be trained up, more people. Just like I went alone in Europe and America. So I have trained them.**So it will depend on your training power, the more people will be attracted.**If you advertise, "Come here," and if you have no power to attract them, then it will not be... You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely. Then people will come. If you become purified, then naturally they will come. Just like if you prepare nice preparation with pure ghee, customers will be naturally attracted and they will pay and purchase. And if you prepare rubbish thing, one man may be cheated, but that will not be attraction for the general**. Purity is required. That will attract.** *Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān*. [*Bg* [[bg/10/12 bg 10.13 bg 10.12-13|10.12]]]: "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth.] One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that "These people are very happy; they have no anxiety," then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? But if you want brothel and night dancing and wine and meat-eating, then it is spoiled. It becomes impure. To become pure is not at all difficult. Rather, to become impure, it is difficult. But people, with all difficulties, they are becoming impure. **Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn't matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.** This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization... **Guest (Indian man):** Car is a necessity, Swamijī, don't you think so? Car is a necessity. **Prabhupāda:**Not necessary.**What is the use of car? If you locate yourself to get everything, your necessity, then where is the use of car? If you require car, you have a bullock cart.** That's all. Why should you hanker after petrol, mobile (Mobil?) oil, machine, this, that, so many things. Why? **Guest:** Yes, but don't you think that it would be impossible for you to come mostly? **Prabhupāda:**No, no.**So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected.**That is the idea. Or those who are interested,**let them manufacture car; we take advantage.**We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. *Ajāgara-vṛtti*.*Ajāgara-vṛtti*, the idea is...*Ajāgara*means the snake.**So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully.**So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five*lakhs'*worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money**. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is*brāhmaṇa*.*Brāhmaṇa*does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character**, and the other*kṣatriyas*and*vaiśyas*, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a*brāhmaṇa*, let him become*kṣatriya*. If he cannot become*kṣatriya*, let him become a*vaiśya*. Otherwise let him remain a*śūdra*. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of*brāhmaṇas*. Then people will be benefitted. And if everyone is*śūdra*, rascal, then what people will be benefitted? They do not know how to live.**The*brāhmaṇas*will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy." Kṛṣṇa Consciousness: The Peaceful Revolution, Johannesburg, October 16, 1975: Morning Walk --- ## Machines and Unemployment New Orleans, August 1, 1975 Room Conversation with Devotees New Tālavana Farm **Husbands and wives...using milk and milk products...machines, employment and unemployment...duties of the varṇas... Kṛṣṇa's Vṛndāvana versus modern city...our varṇāśrama missionPrabhupāda:**That is time for punishment. They should build up their character,*śamaḥ*,*damaḥ*, fully controlled. When they like, they become*gṛhasthas*. Otherwise they are controlled. That is*brāhmaṇa*. For*brāhmaṇa*it is not compulsory to marry.** *Kṣatriyas*may marry more than one wife.** They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls' marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated. **Hṛdayānanda:** From the husband. **Prabhupāda:** At least for one and half years. **Upendra:** At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years? **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is*eka-kadi*(?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months.**So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother's milk for six months at least continually, he'll become healthy for life.Upendra:** Where do they send that mother? **Prabhupāda:** Where they'll take care. **Upendra:** If the man sends the woman away, where does she...? **Prabhupāda:** Our aim is not to give help, but not... Generally she goes to the father's house. So you can have separate building for that. **Nityānanda:** Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife? **Prabhupāda:** I have no objection. **Satsvarūpa:** That's a difficult proposition. **Prabhupāda:** Why? **Satsvarūpa:** It's not allowed in this country. It's illegal. It's against the law. **Devotee:** It's against the law. **Nityānanda:** No, it's a matter of... No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have... **Prabhupāda:** That is not very difficult. **Satsvarūpa:Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select.** Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives. **Prabhupāda:No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want.**We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take.**Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work.**Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing.**This is a training institution, to become devotee.Satsvarūpa:** Everything we do, we don't hide it. We show the world what we're doing. I don't see how we could hide that one man had many different wives. **Prabhupāda:** If you don't call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling "husband," call "friend." That's all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed. **Brahmānanda :** But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California. **Prabhupāda:** Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California. **Nityānanda:** The general public objects to that... It's very... **Prabhupāda:**Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public?*Mūḍhas*, they have been described,*mūḍhas*. You know the meaning of*mūḍha*? **Devotee:** Ass. **Prabhupāda:**Ass.*Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama.*[From*Bg.* [[bg/7/25|7.25]]: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.] **Nityānanda:** The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently? **Prabhupāda:** No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community. **Devotee:** Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men... They can (indistinct) responsible. **Prabhupāda:** No, it is service (?). **Upendra:** One question I have, Prabhupāda... When I heard about New Vrindaban... I've not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I've talked with devotees have been there. **Prabhupāda:** Near. **Upendra:One would think because there's land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.Prabhupāda:** Why? **Upendra:Because they make all the milk into*ghee*and distribute it.** And vegetables... I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the... That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct). **Prabhupāda:** Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk? **Upendra:** I don't know. I can't say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk... **Prabhupāda:** I don't think so. **Devotee:** I have heard that. **Prabhupāda:No. This is not good.*Ghee*should be prepared where there is no more use.**The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they... Just like Nanda Mahārāja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages.**So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan.**It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like.**So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt.**The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes.**Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains.**It is stocked.**So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out.**So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they... Instead of*dāl*, they use this whey, for*capātī*. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into*ghee*. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct). **Satsvarūpa:Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other...Prabhupāda:**Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into*ghee*and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey.**Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it.**And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be*ghee*. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so*ghee*can be sold there. They'll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations,*kachoris*,*samosa*, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don't convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become... What is called? **Brahmānanda:** Curd. **Prabhupāda:**Curd.**So curd you can send to the city.**They will convert into*sandeśa*,*rasagullā*and other preparations, and*ghee*. That is being done.**In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or*ghee*, and*ghee*and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that.**There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize.**And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city.**Utilize the*ghee*, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayātrā festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it—"Very nice." **Brahmānanda:**They were selling one*gulabjamin* for seventy-five cents. **Prabhupāda:**Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also.**In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as*brāhmaṇa*, as*kṣatriya*, as*vaiśya*. Nobody should sit down.*Brāhmaṇas*, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character.**They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven't got to work**.*Sannyāsī*is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal.**Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position.**Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good.**That is*tamo-guṇa*.*Tamo-guṇa*, and*rajo-guṇa*very active, and*sattva-guṇa*, intellectual activity. [Rajo-guṇa, the mode of passion; sattva-guṇa, the mode of goodness; tamo-guṇa, the mode of ignorance.] Both of them, active, only*tamo-guṇa*, not active. (indistinct)*Tamo-guṇa*means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of*tamo-guṇa*. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman—all. Then it will be ideal society. **Nityānanda:Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?Prabhupāda: Hand machine.Nityānanda:** Hand machine? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Nityānanda:** Metal? **Prabhupāda:**Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two**men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood.**They do that. We are not against machine.**You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine.**This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but**not at the risk of keeping others unemployed.**This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed**. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine?**These rascals, they do not know.**They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society.**And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct)**The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy [with] a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals?Brahmānanda:** In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare. **Prabhupāda:** And all criminals. **Brahmānanda:** Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies. **Prabhupāda:** Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that "What to do about crime?" This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on. **Brahmānanda:**There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into*māyā*. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Brahmānanda:** He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit. **Prabhupāda:** In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl's getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them. **Satsvarūpa:** That's very prominent. **Prabhupāda:** And making trade. That is going on. **Brahmānanda:**So this is the*varṇāśrama* system that you are... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Brahmānanda:**This*varṇāśrama* college... **Prabhupāda:**Yes.** *Varnāśrama*means everyone should be engaged.** There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct). **Jagadīśa:**Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the...**Do the*vaiśyas*cultivate the fields or the*śūdras*cultivate the fields?Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Jagadīśa:**Is it the duty of the*vaiśyas* to cultivate the fields or...? **Prabhupāda:Actually it is the duty of the*vaiśyas*, but the*śūdras*can help everyone**, the helpers. The*śūdras*will help the*brāhmaṇas*, the*kṣatriyas*, as well as the*vaiśyas*. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*, or*vaiśya*. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying*śāstras*, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is*brāhmaṇa*. They haven't got to work as*kṣatriya*, as*vaiśya*. They are simply intellectuals. This is*brāhmaṇa*, with good character. **Devotee:** Distributing books? **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**And the distribution book can be done by the*vaiśya*, trade. It is a trade.** *Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam*[Bg [[bg/18/44|18.44]]].*Kṛṣi*, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading.**If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of*vaiśya*.**So*vaiśya*does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And*brāhmaṇa*should be very highly learned scholar.**So the*brāhmaṇas*will give advice to the*kṣatriya*how to rule, and the*kṣatriya*will levy tax, and*vaiśyas*will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.Devotee:** What kind of tax? **Prabhupāda:**Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining.**So*brāhmaṇas*[don't] require any... They will live on the contribution of the society.**Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the*kṣatriyas*and the*vaiśyas*. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly,*brāhmaṇa*will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income.***Kṣatriyas*, they'll levy tax.*Kṣatriya*is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the*vaiśyas*, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent."Brahmānanda:Twenty-five percent of the produce?Prabhupāda:Whatever you have produced.Brahmānanda:Not necessarily money.Prabhupāda:** No. **Brahmānanda:** But the produce. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Brahmānanda:** The grains or the milk or whatever. **Prabhupāda:**Whatever, yes.**"Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land." So that is resource of the land.Devotee:**How does the*kṣatriya* build a palace for himself or something like that? **Prabhupāda:** That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they'll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they'll have respect? **Devotee:**So the*kṣatriya* is the predominator of the land. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.***Kṣatriya*is the owner of the land.Devotee:** And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Devotee:** ...palace. **Prabhupāda:The*śūdras*are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously.** "Eat and work, take some pocket..." They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They'll drink. That's all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That's all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred storey building and...? And then you don't produce anything, eat fish. "And let me eat..." Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied. **Jagadīśa:** Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called... In India they were called*zamindars*, Mohammedans, and the Hindu*zamindars*, small kings. The*zamindars* are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king. **Devotee:** Just like Nanda Mahārāja, he also had land. Nanda Mahārāja. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a*vaiśya*. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct).**This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back.**Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the*gopīs*. (laughter) Then Mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, "My good son is sleeping." And the*gopīs*also would come at a place and they'll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father**Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day.**Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king.**In the Kṛṣṇa's life, He's always busy. Kṛṣṇa... You'll never find, from the very beginning of His life He's busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident.**They'll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is there. He will kill." This is Vṛndāvana. **There is no need, and I don't find in*Bhāgavata*, big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing.**The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition.**Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don't live in the city, you don't require petrol, motor car.**It is no use. They may criticize that "You are going to the farm in a car." So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart—where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day.**And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts.** Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory. **Satsvarūpa:** Insurance. **Prabhupāda:**Insur... So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, "In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted."**They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.Satsvarūpa:**In order to evidence this,**should we consider that we have to act as*kṣatriyas*or shall we just preach and try to get others...Prabhupāda:**No...*Kṣatriyas*, I have already explained who is*brāhmaṇa*and*kṣatriya*according to*guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*, [From*Bg.*[[bg/4/13|4.13]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me"] as you work, as you are fit for.**If you are fit to become*brāhmaṇa*, become*brāhmaṇa*. If you are fit to become*kṣatriya*, become*kṣatriya*. If you are fit to become*śūdra*, do it.**Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is*śūdra*. That's all. "Help the*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya* and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give. **Brahmānanda:So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...Prabhupāda:Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men,*brāhmaṇa*, second-class,*kṣatriya*, third-class,*vaiśya*, fourth-class...Satsvarūpa:** But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas. **Prabhupāda:That is our real position. This is for management.Nityānanda:**How many*kṣatriyas*can I have on this farm? How many*kṣatriyas* can we have on one farm? **Prabhupāda:**I told.**Find out who is going to be*kṣatriya*. Then... Take your time** (?). **Nityānanda:** You can have more than one? **Prabhupāda:**No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule.**As according to the work, if people are interested to work as*vaiśya*, let them become*vaiśya*. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as*brāhmaṇa*, let him work as*brāhmaṇa*. Let him work as*kṣatriya*. And the fourth-class, let him work as*śūdra*. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women.**Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And*śūdras* can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things. **Jagadīśa:** Cobbler? **Prabhupāda:**Cobbler is less than*śūdra*. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a*brāhmaṇa-*teacher means*brāhmaṇa*—and eating meat—Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? **So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world...**And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live...*Andhā yathāndhair...* They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra**.**Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible...**This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. **It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter."**Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood.**Not like that. It is for*para-upakāra*, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.**Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time.**Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict.*Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā*[*Bg*[[bg/7/14|7.14]]] You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary—indigestion. "Indigestion, starve." This is nature's law. Nature will act.**But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that "You don't do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries."*Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī*. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is*para-duḥkha-duḥkh*ī. He is unhappy by seeing others' distress. This is Vaiṣṇava.** (end) Self-sufficiently or Commercial Production?, Mauritius, October 2, 1975: Morning Walk