# Part 6: Social Organization ## Varṇāśrama to Save a Troubled World Vṛndāvana, March 12, 1974 - Varṇāśrama Walk **Every ISKCON center should be a varṇāśrama college...leaders must engage every person and every resource properly...varṇāśrama management will end unemployment and famine.Prabhupāda:**...[The politicians'] business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very [pitiful]...**Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The*varṇāśrama*college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a*varṇāśrama*college should be established to train four divisions: one class,*brāhmaṇa*; one class,*kṣatriya*; one class,*vaiśya*; and one class,*śūdra*.**But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the*śūdras*. **Passerby:** *Jayo*! **Prabhupāda:** Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Bhagavān:**Are*śūdras*supposed to take*sannyāsa* also? **Prabhupāda:** No, why? **Bhagavān:** *Śūdras*... **Prabhupāda:**Those who are*śūdras*, they should not be allowed to take*sannyāsa*. Only those who are qualified*brāhmaṇas*, they'll be allowed to take*sannyāsa*. **Bhagavān:** *Kṣatriyas*used to take*sannyāsa* too? **Prabhupāda:** *Kṣatriyas*... Some of them. Not all. **Guru dāsa:** Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Guru dāsa:** Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. **Prabhupāda:**They did not take*sannyāsa*, but they left home. There is no need of accepting*sannyāsa*. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big*sannyāsī*." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a*brāhmaṇa*." No.**There must be regular training.**Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Jagadīśa:**Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a*varṇāśrama* society is... **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Jagadīśa:**In a*varṇāśrama*society, are most of the citizens*śūdras*? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Jagadīśa:**Are the majority of citizens*śūdras*? In a*varṇāśrama* society? **Prabhupāda:**Yes. The number of*śūdras* are always bigger. Just like in university education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger. **Bhagavān:**The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take*sannyāsa*. **Prabhupāda:Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter.**It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become*brāhmaṇas*. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as *kṣatriya*. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as*vaiśya*. And the balance, they're all*śūdras*. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, *śūdra*. That's all.**So in our society, this division should be there.**The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread." And after getting it, business finished: "Now I'm liberated. et me eat and sleep." This should be stopped.**We have got fifty*bighās*of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpur, setting aside twenty*bighās*for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty*bighās*of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated.** How much you can...? **Bhagavān:** Fifteen hundred. **Prabhupāda:**No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand*rupees*per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he'll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less.*Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā.*[*Bg*[[bg/6/17|6.17]]: "He who is regulated in his habits of eating, sleeping, recreation and work can mitigate all material pains by practicing the*yoga*system.]*Yukta*.*Yukta*means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.**So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the*varṇāśrama*. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.Hṛdayānanda:** Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation? **Prabhupāda:**Eh? No. Devotees are devotees.**Actually devotees are above this*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*. But for management of material things, we have to divide.**Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a*kṣatriya*. In His boyhood, He was acting like a*vaiśya*. But Kṛṣṇa is neither*kṣatriya*nor, nor*brāhmaṇa*. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of*vaiśya*. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a*kṣatriya*. He was marrying as a*kṣatriya*. So although He was acting sometimes as*kṣatriya*, sometimes as*vaiśya*, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... **Nitāi:**Śrīla Prabhupāda?...What should the*kṣatriyas* be taught? **Prabhupāda:*Kṣatriyas*should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight.**This is*kṣatriya's*business. There may be fight.**Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." No. They must come forward. "Yes, we are prepared to fight." That is*kṣatriya*.Tamāla-Kṛṣṇa:**Prabhupāda?...In our centers we are awarding*brāhmaṇa* initiation, second initiation... **Prabhupāda:**No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not under stand what I have said, that that is for Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu... Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, He's not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly,**Vaiṣṇava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like*brāhmaṇa*, one should be acting like*kṣatriya*. That is required.**Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a*sannyāsī*who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that "Because I have taken*sannyāsa*, therefore I cannot any more do any thing." If need be, he has to act as*kṣatriya*. Or a*śūdra*. It doesn't matter. **Hṛdayānanda:** Oh. **Prabhupāda:**Doesn't matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a*śūdra*does not mean he has become*śūdra*. He's Vaiṣṇava.**Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to...*Guṇa*,*karma*.*Karma*there must be. Therefore the*karma*should be done, executed, according to quality.Ātreya-ṛṣi:So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.Prabhupāda:That is leadership. That is leadership: Which man is fitted for which work.Ātreya-ṛṣi:** Yes. Utilization of all resources... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Ātreya-ṛṣi:** ...including devotees and funds and everything. **Prabhupāda:**Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is*kāminī-kāṣcana*, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa.*Jaya*. [break] ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management.**So if our men are not prepared—Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:They are not prepared.Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:** They are not prepared. **Prabhupāda:**Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred*rupees*per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?" What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. [break] ...**especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle... What is? Opiate...? What is called?Devotees:Opiate of the people.Prabhupāda:**Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that "They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?" They have taken some plea and rejected our... [break] ...is there. As we are making counter-propaganda against*māyā*, the*māyā*is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee,*daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā*[*Bg*[[bg/7/14|7.14]]]—then it will not be possible to conquer over*māyā*. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]... > daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg [[bg/7/14|7.14]]] [*Bg*7.14: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.] In India, the*brāhmaṇa*class, they say, "Oh, I am born in*brāhmaṇa* family. Why shall I do this work?" You see. Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here, in India, if he happens to be a *brāhmaṇa*, he'll not take any kind of work. Means... Just like plowing. He'll not agree. Therefore so much land. The*kṣatriya*is thinking, "I am*kṣatriya*." The*brāhmaṇa*is thinking, "I am*brāhmaṇa*." And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a*kṣatriya*. And instead of studying Vedas, he'll study the rules and regulations given by the office. But he'll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. (Hindi) He'll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they're crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners, and you go to the Central Park, you'll find so many hippies are lying down idle. **Ātreya-ṛṣi:** Unemployment. **Prabhupāda:**Unem... Not employment.**They'll not work. That means mismanagement. Why they should remain down?** Why they should remain without any employment? But the government is not doing that. **Devotee:** They do not feel inspired. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Devotee:They do not feel inspired. No one has desire.Prabhupāda:That, that means mismanagement. You had no desire to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you have been taken to it by some, some way or other. That is management.Hṛdayānanda:** *Jaya*, Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** That is management. **Hṛdayānanda:** You are expert manager. **Prabhupāda:**A child does not want to go to school, but it is the duty of the parent to send him to the school by some way or other.**So that is govern ment's duty, that a man should be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment. That is very dangerous position of the society. Now this unemployment question is very strong all over the world.**They'll plan that "This government is not good. That system is not good. He's not good." And he'll do nothing. He'll personally do nothing. Just like the hippies, they criticize everyone, but he'll not do anything. It is all... These descriptions are there in the*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. We are going too far? Employed... [break] ...from the government to utilize this land. You see? So much. Everywhere you'll find. Everywhere you'll find. Who was with me in London? **Devotee:** Yeah. Last time, last summer? **Prabhupāda:** Letchmore Heath. **Devotee:** Yeah? **Prabhupāda:**So much, lying vacant.**They have taken it into consideration that "What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily."** Because he doesn't care for sinful activities. The... "If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the...?" This is going on, all over the world. **Indian man:** Employment means now just to cut the money and not to work. No work. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. [break] The same... Employment, even for the woman, the*carakā*. You see? Gandhi also studied this. There must be...**Woman should be engaged for weaving.** What is called? **Devotee:** Spinning. **Prabhupāda:Spinning, yes**. Everyone should be engaged. That is management. So all GBC members must see that in every temple, everyone is engaged. **Brahmānanda:** That is the meaning of leadership. **Prabhupāda:** That is the meaning of leadership. **Hṛdayānanda:** And that all the devotees are protected. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** And all the devotees are protected. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Everyone should be engaged. And if everyone is engaged, he'll never fall sick. Yes. [break]**...the farmers, their son, they're giving up the farming business.Haṁsadūta:** Going to the city. **Prabhupāda:** Going to the city. In your country also? **Ātreya-ṛṣi:** Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. **Prabhupāda:** Or you have nothing to do with farming. **Ātreya-ṛṣi:** Excuse me? **Prabhupāda:Your country, there is nothing to do with farming. You have got petrol.Ātreya-ṛṣi:** No. No there is a lot of good land, but they're not developing it. **Devotee:** Just selling petrol. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes, if they can get money underground, "Why shall I work?" (end) Working Is Also Preaching, Vṛndāvana, March 14, 1974: Varṇāśrama Walk --- ## Varṇāśrama College Vṛndāvana March 14, 1974 - Morning Walk **Prabhupāda:**...technological college. Similarly, this is another college,*varṇāśrama* college. **Satsvarūpa:** For the public in general? **Prabhupāda:**Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this*varṇāśrama* college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training. **Hṛdayānanda:** Would it be for a particular age group? **Prabhupāda:**Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa.*Kaumāra ācaret prājṣo dharmān bhāgavatān iha*. [SB [[sb/7/6/1 1976|7.6.1]]]: "One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service...] The... How... We are getting so many*sannyāsīs*, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches. **Hṛdayānanda:**How would it be different than*gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:**How would it differ from*gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:** *Gurukula*is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the*varṇāśrama* school or college for further developed training. **Hṛdayānanda:**They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or*varṇa*? Such as say... **Prabhupāda:** No. **Hṛdayānanda:**Say, for example, someone was a, a*kṣatriya* by inclination, or a...? **Prabhupāda:**No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore*varṇāśrama* college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Hṛdayānanda:**But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like*Bhagavad-gītā*and*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would... **Hṛdayānanda:** Boarding school. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hṛdayānanda:**And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in*gurukula*? **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Just like material subject matter,*kṣatriya*, or the*brāhmaṇas*,*kṣatriya*, as they are described in the*Bhagavad-gītā*, what are the symptoms of*brāhmaṇa*, what is the symptoms of*kṣatriya*. The*kṣatriyas* should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill. **Hṛdayānanda:**Oh. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. And*vaiśyas* should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical. **Nitāi:** Not business also? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Nitāi:**The*vaiśyas*? **Prabhupāda:** Business, this rascal business, no. **Nitāi:** No? **Prabhupāda:**Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is*śūdra* business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Huh? Is it difficult? This is business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a *kṣatriya*, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a*brāhmaṇa*, or as a*kṣatriya*, or as a*vaiśya*, or as a*śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:**What kind of training is there for a*śūdra*? **Prabhupāda:** *Śūdra* is general assistant. **Hṛdayānanda:** Oh, just... **Prabhupāda:** Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all. **Satsvarūpa:** What would he learn at the school, though? **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Satsvarūpa:**What would his business be at that*varṇāśrama* college? **Prabhupāda:**Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is*śūdra*. He must agree to abide by the orders of*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriyas*,*vaiśya*. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and*ārati*. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit. **Yadubara:**Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Yadubara:** What class does the arts and crafts come under? **Prabhupāda:**Eh?*Śūdra*. **Yadubara:** *Śūdra*. **Prabhupāda:**They are*śūdras*. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the*śūdras*. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts. **Yadubara:** Hm. Yes. **Prabhupāda:**Therefore the whole people, population, is*śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:** It is a fact. **Prabhupāda:**That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are*śūdras*. [break] **Hṛdayānanda:** ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life. **Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Hṛdayānanda:** In our society [break] ...accepted [break] ...as a philosopher. **Prabhupāda:** Artist? **Hṛdayānanda:** Yeah, the artist. **Prabhupāda:**No, no. Artist is also business of the*śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda:** Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... [break] **Prabhupāda:** Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy. **Hṛdayānanda:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:**That, in your Western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog...They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher.*Vane haye śṛgāla rājā*. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than*śūdras*and*caṇḍālas*. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact. **Hṛdayānanda:** It's true. Yes. **Prabhupāda:**Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them,*mlecchas*and*yavanas*. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the*mlecchas*and*yavanas*, by training, you are becoming more than a*brāhmaṇa*. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry.*Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati*(?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry.*Prakopayati na śamayati*.*Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānām*(?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison.*Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam.* But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore *varṇāśrama* school required. **Hṛdayānanda:**So Prabhupāda, in this*varṇāśrama* college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...? Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read *Mahābhārata*, history of the great men, Pāṇḍavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. **Hṛdayānanda:** *Mahābhārata*. **Prabhupāda:** Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so... **Prabhupāda:** Hm? History must be for great person. This is history. **Hṛdayānanda:**So in our*varṇāśrama* college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow... **Prabhupāda:**Four principles essential. Essential. But only the*śūdras*or the*kṣatriyas*... Just like*kṣatriyas*, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also. **Hṛdayānanda:** What he kills. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are*kṣatriyas*, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the*kṣatriyas*, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the*śūdras*, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the*caṇḍālas*. **Hṛdayānanda:**But never the cow. **Prabhupāda**: No. Cow... The*śūdras*, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition. **Satsvarūpa**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men? **Prabhupāda**: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home. **Satsvarūpa**: So they don't attend*varṇāśrama* college. **Prabhupāda**: No, no.*Varṇāśrama*college especially meant for the*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*and*vaiśya*. Those who are not fit for education, they are*śūdras*. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education—*śūdra* means. That's all. They should assist the higher class. **Hṛdayānanda**: Would the*brāhmaṇas* learn Sanskrit? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? Not necessarily. **Hṛdayānanda**: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy. **Prabhupāda**: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. **Hṛdayānanda**: So in this*varṇāśrama*college there would be two divisions,*varṇa*and*āśr*... Learning a materia... **Prabhupāda**: First of all*varṇa*. And*āśrama*, then, when the*varṇa*is perfectly in order, then*āśrama*.*Āśrama*is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and*varṇa*is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If*varṇa*is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the*varṇa*is working perfectly, then we give them*āśrama*.*Varṇāśrama*. That is later on. **Hṛdayānanda**: First they should be taught a skill. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four*varṇas*. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into*varṇas*, there will be no question of unemployment. **Hṛdayānanda**: But from the very beginning there should be taught*Bhagavad-gītā* and... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above*varṇāśrama*. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above*varṇāśrama*. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any *varṇa*and*āśrama*. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to *varṇāśrama*, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says,*mayā sṛṣṭam*. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with*varṇāśrama*. Similarly, if we act as*varṇāśrama*, still, we have nothing to do with the*varṇāśrama*. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a*brāhmaṇa*. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. They are*satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ*. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind...*śamo damaḥ*,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters.*Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam*. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is*brāhmaṇa*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in? **Prabhupāda**: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh, they'll be teachers. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was*brāhmaṇa*, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the*brāhmaṇas*. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a*brāhmaṇa*. But because he took the position of a teacher, he taught very perfectly. A*brāhmaṇa*should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is*brāhmaṇa*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So*brāhmaṇa* can teach how to fight? **Prabhupāda**: Yes.*Brāhmaṇa* means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything. **Satsvarūpa**: This is all very new. **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Satsvarūpa**: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school. **Prabhupāda**: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult? **Satsvarūpa**: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though. **Prabhupāda**: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor. **Satsvarūpa**: Then it becomes easy. **Prabhupāda**: But I must know everything because I am a teacher. **Hṛdayānanda**: So, for example, if I become a teacher at*varṇāśrama*, say, the first teacher at the*varṇāśrama* college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to... **Prabhupāda**: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these*varṇāśrama*, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions. **Viṣṇujana**: For example, in New Vrindaban we have*brāhmaṇas* that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. That's right. He is*brāhmaṇa*, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing. **Hṛdayānanda**: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything. **Prabhupāda**: No, no. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh, I see. So a*brāhmaṇa* teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Hṛdayānanda**: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the... **Prabhupāda**: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are*śūdras*or less than*śūdras*. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given. **Viṣṇujana**: Preliminary. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work? **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind. **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa conscious ness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method—*varṇāśrama*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our*varṇāśrama*college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you've made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about*Bhagavad-gītā* and then, side by side, they learn a... **Prabhupāda**: Four regulative principles compulsory. **Hṛdayānanda**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: But if some of the*kṣatriya*or the*śūdras*, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the*kṣatriya*, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him.*Bās*. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand.*Bās*. He cannot steal anymore. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing. **Yadubara**: How would the*kṣatriyas* kill the animals? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Yadubara**: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? **Prabhupāda**: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the*kṣatriyas*were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly,*parivrāja*, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg and you are traveling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. **Viṣṇujana**: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of... **Prabhupāda**: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it. **Viṣṇujana**: Oh, I see. **Prabhupāda**: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them*prasādam*. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is*sannyāsī*. **Viṣṇujana**: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: ...that we live there and... **Prabhupāda**: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat." **Viṣṇujana**: Then there'll be wide criticism. **Prabhupāda**: That is... This is not good. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda... **Prabhupāda**: You should remain always*sannyāsī*within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this*varṇāśrama*. We are not*varṇāśrama*; we are above*varṇāśrama*. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done. **Hṛdayānanda**: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position? **Prabhupāda**: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the*brāhmaṇas*, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money. **Hṛdayānanda**: The*vaiśya* students will produce the food. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Satsvarūpa**: Should our children who are at*gurukula*, when they grow up, should they go to that*varṇāśrama* college, or...? **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. They should go. **Hṛdayānanda**: We'll start it right away. **Prabhupāda**:*Varṇāśrama* college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students. **Hṛdayānanda**: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Ten to twelve years. **Hṛdayānanda**: They can start at ten to twelve? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. From five to ten years,*gurukula*. And after ten years, they should go to the*varṇāśrama* college. **Viṣṇujana**: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Organize that. **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. I shall go. **Viṣṇujana**: This Mahārāja is also going to New Vrindaban. **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. **Viṣṇujana**: He can... **Prabhupāda**: Do that. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you, and combined together, do that. **Viṣṇujana**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work. **Viṣṇujana**: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Viṣṇujana**: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: That's most auspicious. **Prabhupāda**: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain. **Viṣṇujana**: For example, in my program... **Prabhupāda**:*Budhaḥ*.*Budhaḥ* [an intelligent person"]. Eh? Yes? **Viṣṇujana**: My program now is I have ten*brahmacārīs* in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books? **Prabhupāda**: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa [break] ...in separate department. **Passer-by**: Rādhe, Rādhe! **Prabhupāda**: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe." **Viṣṇujana**: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were... **Prabhupāda**: This is India. **Viṣṇujana**: ...worshiping... **Prabhupāda**: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries. **Hṛdayānanda**: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Parivrājakācārya**: Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda**: Eh? **Parivrājakācārya**: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...? **Prabhupāda**: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this*varṇāśrama*. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position. **Parivrājakācārya**: So the students, also, they must all be devotees. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul. **Satsvarūpa**: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as*vaiśya* or... **Prabhupāda**: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the ground work. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the*gopīs*, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that. **Hṛdayānanda**: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...? **Prabhupāda**: They should be engaged. **Hṛdayānanda**: Should they be trained in a particular...? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture. **Hṛdayānanda**: Those who cannot preach. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as*kṣatriya*or*vaiśya*, or as*śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda**: And sometimes... **Prabhupāda**: Not he's*śūdra*. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy. **Hṛdayānanda**: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college. **Prabhupāda**: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come. **Hṛdayānanda**: Room and board and training. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way,*śūdra*. **Hṛdayānanda**: So they should be trained to rise early and so on. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina? **Hṛdayānanda**: Yes. Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very...*Balera ghāma*, and the*durbalera ghuma*.*Ghāma*and*ghuma*.*Ghuma*means sleeping, and*ghāma* means perspiration. [break] ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion... Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁhadeva.*Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān* [SB [[sb/7/9/43 1976|7.9.43]]]. "...My concern is only for the fools and rascals who are making elaborate plans for material happiness and maintaining their families, societies and countries. I am simply concerned with love for them.] [break] ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. [break]... Devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a *śūdra*how to work like this, you have become a*śūdra*. You are not*śūdras*, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a*śūdra*how to work like a*śūdra*. [break] ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear? **Satsvarūpa**: Yes. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. **Viṣṇujana**: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training*kṣatriyas*, they're training... **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning... **Viṣṇujana**: ...*vaiśyas*... **Prabhupāda**: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula. **Viṣṇujana**: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired. **Parivrājakācārya**: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already... **Prabhupāda**: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there. **Viṣṇujana**: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court.*Paṣcāyeta*. It is called*paṣcāyeta* system. [break] ...tion. You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings. **Viṣṇujana**: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and... **Prabhupāda**: Yes, yes. **Viṣṇujana**: ...and turn it into a society. **Hṛdayānanda**: Ah, that's wonderful. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Draw a Plow, Vṛndāvana, March 15, 1974: Varṇāśrama Walk --- ## Guru Gives Varṇa Guidance Hyderabad, April 20, 1974 - Morning Walk **In varṇāśrama, all social orders cooperate to serve Kṛṣṇa...whatever his social function is, a Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava...no matter how much service one does, if he neglects his vows, he is a cheaterPaṣcadraviḍa:**How do you teach a*varṇāśrama*college? In*varṇāśrama*college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be*kṣatriya*" or "I want to be*vaiśya*." Is it like that? **Prabhupāda:No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the*guru*.Paṣcadraviḍa:Who will teach him to be a*kṣatriya*or who will teach him to be a*vaiśya*?Prabhupāda: A*kṣatriya*, a*brāhmaṇa*. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.Paṣcadraviḍa:**So where will we get*kṣatriyas* and...? **Prabhupāda:**That is in the*śāstra*. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the*Bhagavad-gītā*.*Kṣatriya*means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is*kṣatriya*. **Paṣcadraviḍa:** So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. (break) Because he knows how to teach. That's all. **Paṣcadraviḍa:The*brāhmaṇas*, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as...Prabhupāda:This is also devotion, to teach a*kṣatriya*, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion.Paṣcadraviḍa:**And*vaiśyas*? **Prabhupāda:** Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. **So everything for the service.**If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that.**His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa.**Just like, the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) (break) ...lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice? **Mahāṁsa:** No. **Prabhupāda:**So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the*śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ*[SB 7.5.23]: " Hearing and chanting about Lord Viṣṇu...], that is pleasing.**Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Kṛṣṇa.**He knows. **Nitāi:** One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman. **Prabhupāda:** Clergyman? **Nitāi:** Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman. **Prabhupāda:** Where he was? **Nitāi:**He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was.**And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this*varṇāśrama*system.** And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory... **Prabhupāda:**He is a*śūdra*. **Nitāi:** Would we retrain him as a farmer? **Prabhupāda:**No, [not unless] he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that*śūdra* also. **Nitāi:** He can remain in the factory. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. But he cannot do the work of a*brāhmaṇa*. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain.**Similarly,*śūdra*is as important as the*brāhmaṇa*, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious.**That is wanted, not that artificially a*śūdra*should be working as a*brāhmaṇa*, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. **Nitāi:**So in that case he is a*śūdra*, and he is also doing the work of a... **Prabhupāda:Then he is not a*śūdra*.**One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither*brāhmaṇa*nor*śūdra*.**He is devotee.**He is*brahma-bhūta*[SB [[sb/4/30/20 1974|4.30.20]]].*Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate*. [From*Bg.*[[bg/14/26|14.26]]: "One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.]**Apparently he looks like*śūdra*.**Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more.*Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ*. [From*Padma Purāṇa*: "One should not consider the Deity of the Lord as worshiped in the temple to be an idol, nor should one consider the authorized spiritual master an ordinary man. Nor should one consider a pure Vaiṣṇava to belong to a particular caste, etc.] Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is*nārakī* [resident of hell]. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required. **Mahāṁsa:Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Kṛṣṇa**. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Mahāṁsa:He is a devotee. He is not a*śūdra*making garlands.Prabhupāda:No. He is not a ordinary gardener.Paṣcadraviḍa:** Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges. [See SB [[sb/5/19/7 1975|5.19.7]] purport re: Kholāvecā Śrīdhara.] **Prabhupāda:Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava.** He is above all these. **Paṣcadraviḍa:**A*śūdra*, if he is working, he cannot take*brāhmaṇa*initiation, but he can take*hari-nāma*, is that it? **Prabhupāda:**Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a*mehtar*? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a*mehtar*or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as*brāhmaṇa*, as*śūdra*, as*kṣatriya*, like that. > sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate [Bg [[bg/14/26|14.26]]]: "One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.] **A devotee, because he is working as a*śūdra*, he is not a*śūdra*; neither he is a*brāhmaṇa*. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the*śūdra's*work nicely—let him be engaged in that way.**Why he should imitate? **Mahāṁsa:Does he get second initiation?Prabhupāda:Everything he will get.Mahāṁsa:** He gets. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaiṣṇava."**Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant. **Paṣcadraviḍa:**What if the person working as*śūdra* says, "I can do so much. I can...," **Prabhupāda:**First of all, try to understand.**A devotee is neither*brāhmaṇa*nor*śūdra*. He may act like a*śūdra*, but he is not*śūdra*. He may act like a*brāhmaṇa*; he is not*brāhmaṇa*.**He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like*gopīs*. The*gopīs*, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the*brāhmaṇa*class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest.*Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa*[From Lord Caitanya's statement: "There is no better method of worshiping Kṛṣṇa than the method conceived by the*gopīs*.] They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a *brāhmaṇa*, a*śūdra*or*vaiśya*. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see:*sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho...*[SB [[sb/1/2/6 1972|1.2.6]]]: "The supreme occupation {*dharma*} for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord.]*Aiye*. Hare Kṛṣṇa.*Jaya*. That is wanted. **Paṣcadraviḍa:What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day.** He says, "I can't..." **Prabhupāda:Then he is not even a human being.** He is a rascal. That's all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. (break) **Paṣcadraviḍa:** ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something. **Prabhupāda:** Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing. **Nitāi:One point that you made a few years ago in Vṛndāvana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life.Prabhupāda:**Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained,*apratihatā*. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life,*sthane sthitaḥ*, if he simply hears about Kṛṣṇa then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then it is difficult. Therefore*śravaṇam*. The first thing is that. The first qualification—he must be eager to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will come.*Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam.*[SB 7.5.23]: "Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Viṣṇu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words)—these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service.] (break) **Paṣcadraviḍa:**...**such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful,*kīrtana*and everything, but we know they are not chanting*japa*. What can we do in that situation?** Are we... **Prabhupāda:** Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service. **Paṣcadraviḍa:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business.**The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it. **Paṣcadraviḍa:** Some persons we encounter they don't even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are... **Prabhupāda:** No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this. **Satsvarūpa:** Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though. **Prabhupāda:** Then he is animal. **Satsvarūpa:But still, he's doing lots of good devotional service.Paṣcadraviḍa:** He may even be manager. **Prabhupāda:Then they will get some chance later on.** What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. (break) And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that "I am so busy." **Paṣcadraviḍa:** Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right. If you can chant more, that is good. (break) **Paṣcadraviḍa:** ...must associate with them, that is difficult. **Prabhupāda:** But you do your business. You don't follow them. That's all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. **If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that "Next day also, I am busy," then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way.**You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion.**"Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting"—this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somebody, after initiation he promises, "Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds," before the fire, before the Deity, before the *guru*, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaiṣṇava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises.**Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing every thing, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating.**If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating.*Vaiddhi-bhakti*[devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations"] must be followed; otherwise it becomes*sahajiyā*. [...A class of so-called devotees {who} follow their own concocted ideas and, representing themselves as Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, indulge in debauchery.] Grow Your Own Food, Rome, May 25, 1974: Morning Walk at Villa Borghese --- ## Harnessing Natural Inclination Vṛndāvana, April 20, 1975 Conversation With Governor **Government must maintain varṇāśrama...college must train varṇas...village must show examplePrabhupāda**: Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a*śūdra*, and you are advertising yourself as a*brāhmaṇa*. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) **So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character.**Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as*brāhmaṇa*. This should be stopped.**And a training college should be there how to make a real*brāhmaṇa*.**I have given the example... **Governor:** *Vānaprastha* college. **Prabhupāda:** *Vānaprastha*college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up.**If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a*brāhmaṇa*, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real*brāhmaṇa*is trained up.**Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred*rupees*per month. So twelve hundred*rupees*per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six*rupees*. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a*brāhmaṇa*, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect*brāhmaṇa*." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of*brāhmaṇa*, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"? **Governor:**The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a*brāhmaṇa*. (indistinct)... Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people. **Prabhupāda:** All people. **Governor:** No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many. **Prabhupāda:**No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the*Bhagavad-gītā*,*cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. [Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me...]The*guṇas*are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person.**That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of*brāhmaṇa*, proper training of*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*, must be given.** These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that? **Brahmānanda:"As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect*brāhmaṇas*with ideal characters as above mentioned in the*Bhagavad-gītā*. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."Prabhupāda:So therefore this*varṇāśrama*college is very essential.Governor:** Both intensive and extensive training. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter. **Governor:** You said 5 percent and 95 percent. **Prabhupāda:Ninety-five percent may remain non-*brāhmaṇa*.**But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow.*Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ*. [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?"]**You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars.** So this is the suggestion. Then? **Brahmānanda:**"The propagation of*mānava-dharma*. Regarding propaga tion of*mānava-dharma*,*mānava-dharma*means the activities of the human beings. So the distinction between*mānava-dharma*and*paśu-dharma* is that in the animal society there is no idea of God consciousness. God consciousness can only be propagated in human society. In the animal society they may be physically stronger than the humans like the tiger and the elephant or many such animals, but they cannot be educated spiritually." **Prabhupāda:** They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then? **Brahmānanda:**"But in human society, even though one may be a low-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class*brāhmaṇa*. It only requires training. Therefore,*manava-dharma*means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kṛṣṇa teaches this idea in the beginning of the*Bhagavad-gītā*: > dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg [[bg/2/13|2.13]]] [*Bg* [[bg/2/13|2.13]]: "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.] This is the beginning of spiritual education, that every one of us is not this body. Unfortunately the whole world is in darkness, and therefore every human is identifying with this body and thinking wrongly, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am *brāhmaṇa*," "I am this," "I am that." To drive away this misconception of life is actually*manava-dharma*. We must know that we are not this body but spirit soul, and as such, we are part and parcel of God and therefore qualitatively one with God, exactly like a small particle of gold is also gold as is the gold from the big gold mine. But quantitatively the particle of gold is not equal to the gold in the mine. This is very elaborately described in the*Bhagavad-gītā*, and if we accept these principles of*Bhagavad-gītā*as*manava-dharma*, then the whole world will appreciate. And this is being done by our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Point Five: Elements in our tradition relating to *dharma*and*saṁsṛti*which are useful and wholesome but which are being discarded in practice, and those which may be considered to be unsuitable in the present times. Number Five: Regarding elements in our tradition relating to*dharma*and*saṁsṛti*..." **Prabhupāda:**This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The*pakkā* [first-class], he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then? **Brahmānanda:**"Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to*dharma*and*saṁsṛti*, we must adopt the whole*varṇa*and*āśramas*as they are recommended in all the*śāstras*. If you give up these directions of the*śāstras*, that is neither*dharma*nor*saṁsṛti*, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the*Bhagavad-gītā*that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*,*brahmacārī*,*gṛhastha*,*vānaprastha*and*sannyāsī*must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of*bhāratīya sanskṛiti*." **Prabhupāda:**If you give up this*varṇāśrama-dharma*, then where is your*bhāratīya sanskṛiti*? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is*bhāratīya sanskṛiti*? Then? **Brahmānanda:**"Six: Injunctions of*śāstras*regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions.**So the mutual relationship of*dharma*and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of*varṇāśrama*.**It is actually like this: the*brāhmaṇa*is like the head, and the*kṣatriya*is like the arms, the*vaiśya*is the stomach or the abdomen, and the*śūdra*is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the*brahmacārī*is the trained-up disciple, the*gṛhastha*is the trained-up householder, the*vānaprastha*is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the*sannyāsī*is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg.**When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously**and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body.**Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society.**" **Governor:** Coordination. **Prabhupāda:**Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea.**Not that "Because I am head,*brāhmaṇa*, oh, here is a*śūdra*. Oh, don't see his face."**Why?*Śūdra* is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required. **Governor:** It is an harmonious coordination. **Prabhupāda:Yes, harmonious coordination. But the*śūdras*were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans.**And there was no re-acceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Mussulman will take little water from the*badna*(?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammadan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammadan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammadan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the*śāstra*, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him?*Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*... [*Bg*[[bg/9/32|9.32]]]: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women,*vaiśyas*{merchants} and*śūdras* {workers}—can attain the supreme destination.] This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low-grade... **Governor:** No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all*śāstras*.**Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although*śāstra*does not say so.*Śāstra*says,*māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ*. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in*pāpa-yoni*"...*Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim*, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position."**And in the*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated.*Caṇḍalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ*.**[Even if one is born in the family of a*caṇḍāla*, if one engages in the devotional service of the Lord, he becomes the best of*brāhmaṇas*. But even a*brāhmaṇa* who is devoid of devotional service is on the level of the lowest dog-eater.] **Governor:**We have right example of Vālmīki [Vedic sage and author of the*Rāmāyaṇa*]. **Prabhupāda:**Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant,*śūdra*. He had no father. So*dāsī-putra*. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the *Jabalopaniṣad*, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prosti tute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are*brāhmaṇa*. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a*brāhmaṇa*, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as*brāhmaṇa*: "You are telling the truth."*Satya śamaḥ damaḥ*. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard *śāstra*and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men.**So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the*śāstra*.** Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next? **Brahmānanda:**"The injunctions of*śāstras*regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. The injunction of the*śāstra*about charity is that charity should be given to qualified*brāhmaṇa*or*sannyāsī*because they will spend it for the benefit of the whole human society. This is called charity in goodness. In the*śāstras* there..." **Prabhupāda:**Just like we are getting charity, crores* *of rupees, but we are spending for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the*brāhmaṇa*and the*sannyāsī*, no other else. Then? **Governor:**The*apātra-dāna*. **Prabhupāda:**Ah?*Apātra-dāna*, that is third-class. Go on. **Brahmānanda:**"This is called charity in goodness. In the*śāstras*there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our*Back to Godhead*, 'Charity in ignorance.'" **Prabhupāda:**She has written one article in our*Back to Godhead*. I am quoting from that. **Brahmānanda:**"...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the*śāstras* charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. "Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kṛṣṇa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Point Nine: The role of *manava-dharma pariṣat*. I think that if the*manava-dharma pariṣat*takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the*pariṣat*inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society.**So far*manava-dharma*is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world. "Point Ten: The *manava-dharma*mission, its constitution and program.**Therefore the constitution of*manava-dharma*or the institution of*varṇāśrama*must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. "**The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains.**Mother Nature, or Mother Durgā, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains.**This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing.**In the*Bhagavad- gītā* it is confirmed, > annād-bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ [Bg [[bg/3/14|3.14]]]: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of *yajña*[sacrifice}, and*yajña* is born of prescribed duties.] I hope you will give your serious consideration to my suggestions, and I am prepared to cooperate with you to my best capacity if you think my suggestions are right." **Prabhupāda:**This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles)**And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society.Governor:**Any elaboration of what you refer to as*vānaprastha* college? **Prabhupāda:**No,*varṇāśrama*.*Vānaprastha*, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take*prasādam*and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take*vānaprastha*, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge. **Brahmānanda:**I think the governor was asking about the*varṇāśrama* college. **Prabhupāda:**Ah.***Varnāśrama*college, that training factual*brāhmaṇa***. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a*brāhmaṇa*, he must act as a*brāhmaṇa*. If one is proclaiming as a*kṣatriya*, he must act as a*kṣatriya*. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a*śūdra*will claim to be*brāhmaṇa*. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in*Bhagavad-gītā*,*sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ*. [*Bg*[[bg/3/35|3.35]]: "Destruction in the course of perform ing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.] So if one is claiming to be*brāhmaṇa*he must be*brāhmaṇa*. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a*śūdra*, and somebody is claiming, "I am*brāhmaṇa*," "I am*kṣatriya*," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the*brāhmaṇas*[were] strictly following. They would not accept... In the*śāstras*it is said that the*brāhmaṇa*in bad time may become a*kṣatriya*. Just like Dronācārya. He was*brāhmaṇa*, but he became a*kṣatriya*for certain reason, and acting like*kṣatriya*, although he was respected as*brāhmaṇa*, but he was acting as a*kṣatriya*. So it is advised that *brāhmaṇa*may take the profession of a*kṣatriya*and up to the*vaiśya*. But if he takes the profession of a*śūdra*, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced**.**And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned,*samsriti*? **Brahmānanda:** *Bhāratīya samskriti*. **Prabhupāda:** *Bhāratīya samskriti*. It will be very respectfully accepted. Why should we imitate them? That is... Western civilization is not brahminical culture.**There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely... So in our India, in a place like Vṛndāvana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if*varṇāśrama*college is established. How to Utilize the Bulls, New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Walk Around New T**ā**lavana Farm --- ## Protection of Women August 3, 1976, Paris Room Conversation With French Commander (French translations throughout) **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Anyway, just inquire. These are our garden flowers. **Jayatīrtha:** Oh, very nice. **Prabhupāda:** This is also? **Bhagavān:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Anything grown in the garden, that is hundred times valuable than it is purchased from the market.**(pause) ***Bhagavad-gītā*is a book which can guide the whole human society. In all different branches of knowledge, namely in politics, in sociology, in religion, in culture, in philosophy, in economics, everything, all lines are described very vividly, and the human society can take advantage of it.**The*Bhagavad-gītā* begins in the battlefield with politics... (**Mrs. Marchand** speaks) **Translator:She wants to know if it is recommended that a woman become a*sannyāsī*.Prabhupāda:Woman should stay under the father, under the husband, and under the elderly sons. Nothing more.** Therefore it is the duty of the father to give her in charge of a young man when she is young. This is Vedic culture. **Translator:She's asking what should a woman do if she is alone?Prabhupāda:She cannot be alone.**Na svātantryam arhati. Woman should not be allowed... Just like children. Children cannot be alone. They must taken care of.**Similarly a woman, in childhood, should be taken care of by the father; when she's young, she should be taken care of by the husband; and when she's old, she should be taken care of by elderly sons.**You'll find in the Vedic literature, the father's responsibil ity is until she's handed over to a suitable young man. **And the husband's responsibility is so long she hasn't got elderly children.**At that time, when she has got elderly children, he can leave home and take*sannyāsa*. So the process is a woman is kept under protection always. There is no independence for woman. That is... Still, in India it is going on. The father is obliged to find out a suitable husband for the daughter and give her in his charge. Then his responsibility finished. Until that, she is, he's responsible to take care of the daughter. Unmarried girl to remain always under the protection of the father. **Yogeśvara:But today there seem to be so few qualified husbands**. **Prabhupāda:Because you do not train the boys to be qualified.**You train them to become debauch. What can be done?**You train them from*brahmacārī*, then they'll be responsible husbands. Both the girls and the boys should be trained up.** Then they'll be responsible husband and wife and live peacefully. In their young days, if you give them freedom, they'll spoil. What can be done? Young, youthful days, if you give them full freedom, they'll be misguided and spoiled. **Translator:**She's asking that**since in these Western countries the families are so broken up and the women sometimes cannot find a qualified husband, what should she do? Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. Not by Birth, But by Training, Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh