# Part 5: Simple Living and Economics ## Plain Living, High Thinking New Vrindaban, June 24, 1976 - Room Conversation **Advancement: material versus spiritual...of milk and meat...engage children as Kṛṣṇa was...Kṛṣṇa consciousness as working for Kṛṣṇa...even an animal can become God conscious by associationPrabhupāda**: This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindaban to all the colleges this year when we are preaching and show it to the students as our practical example. **Prabhupāda**: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life.*Anartha*. **Kīrtanānanda**: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Kīrtanānanda**: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. **Prabhupāda**: Now suppose these electric lights. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is*ugra-karma*. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and... In this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence, but that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called *māyā*. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature, you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life by the laws of nature, if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? **Kulādri**: Simple living, high thinking. **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kulādri**: Simple living. **Prabhupāda**: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? **Kīrtanānanda**: He says he doesn't believe it. **Prabhupāda**: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact.*Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya*. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. **Kīrtanānanda**: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." **Prabhupāda**: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. **Kīrtanānanda**: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig oil? **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kīrtanānanda**: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to... **Prabhupāda**: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save you improve your self-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toys, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and... Then is that very good intelligence? **Kīrtanānanda**: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kīrtanānanda**: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. **Prabhupāda**: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? **Kīrtanānanda**: No, of course not. **Prabhupāda**: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said*duṣkṛtinaḥ*.*Kṛti* means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same—animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called *duṣkṛtinaḥ*. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. **Kuladri**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said... **Prabhupāda**: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal, what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say "You are rascal, you must go to your room." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning?*Mūḍha*. It is the law of nature.*Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ*. [From*Bg.*[[bg/2/13|2.13]]: "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.]The example is given that this boy will change his body.*Dehāntara-prāptir* [transference of the body"]. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand? Yes, this body will not remain. While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but... Whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your... **Kulaśekhara**: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me... **Prabhupāda**: Huh? **Kulaśekhara**: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler...The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Less disease. Less brain-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? **Kulaśekhara**: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature"—what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa.*Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate.*[*Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad* 6.8: "...No one is greater than Him or equal to Him..." [Cc Madhya 13.65, [[cc/madhya/13/65|purport]]]] Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. **Kīrtanānanda**: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. **Prabhupāda**: That is, of course. **Kīrtanānanda**: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. **Prabhupāda**: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction....So everyone is getting milk? How much? **Kīrtanānanda**: As much as they want. **Prabhupāda**: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. **Kīrtanānanda**: Minimum. **Prabhupāda**: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound, milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. **Kīrtanānanda**: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. **Prabhupāda**: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to under stand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization?... So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say also. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. **Kulaśekhara**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk? **Prabhupāda**: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as*ghee*and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice*samosā*,*kachorī*. So in exchange you get money, you require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India, before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping, say, a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then..., what is called? It is another milk. **Devotees**: Casein? Curd? Cheese? **Visakha**: Buttermilk **Prabhupāda**: Buttermilk, yes, and in this way after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and then get*ghee*, and that*ghee*is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought*ghee*. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require*ghee*, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way... **Hari-śauri**: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Hari-śauri**: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. **Prabhupāda**: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? **Kīrtanānanda**: About a thousand pounds. **Prabhupāda**: Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." **Kīrtanānanda**: That would be illegal. **Prabhupāda**: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim. **Kīrtanānanda**: But that will get us in trouble. **Prabhupāda**: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally... **Kīrtanānanda**: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. **Prabhupāda**: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. **Kīrtanānanda**: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Kīrtanānanda**: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. **Prabhupāda**: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. **Kīrtanānanda**: The jackals like it. **Prabhupāda**: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government... **Kīrtanānanda**: Government doesn't like it. **Prabhupāda**: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry, they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat-eaters. Take free without any price. **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting. **Prabhupāda**: Hmm? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. **Prabhupāda**: Disgusting? **Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa**: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. **Prabhupāda**: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid. **Kīrtanānanda**: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) **Hari-śauri**: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself, he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat-eater. And he said, one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it, then it was ready to eat. **Prabhupāda**: White spot means decomposed. Fungus.*Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate.*[From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura,*Prema-bhakti-candrikā*:*"* Fruitive activities and mental specula tion are simply cups of poison. Whoever drinks of them thinking them to be nectar, must struggle very hard life after life, in different types of bodies. Such a person eats all kinds of nonsense and becomes condemned by his activities of so-called sense enjoyment.] **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." **Prabhupāda**: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna**: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." **Kīrtanānanda**: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being. **Prabhupāda**: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient... But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? **Kīrtanānanda**: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. **Prabhupāda**: Hard work. **Kīrtanānanda**: That is good. **Prabhupāda**: For cows there is no difficulty. **Kīrtanānanda**: No. **Prabhupāda**: In India, they call Pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are Pahārhī. You have accepted other's children also? **Kīrtanānanda**: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands, there are quite a few here. **Prabhupāda**: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is..., who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind.*Kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca.* *Kṛpā-sindhu*, "ocean of mercy," that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are, come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. **Kīrtanānanda**: The children are doing very nicely. **Prabhupāda**: Yes? **Kīrtanānanda**: And they will be our future community. **Prabhupāda**: Oh, yes. **Kīrtanānanda**: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the *Bhagavad-gītā*[*Bg* [[bg/3/8|3.8]]: see below] you'll find. *niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ* Find out this. **Hari-śauri:** What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? **Prabhupāda:** *Niyataḥ*.**You should read*Bhagavad-gītā*so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer.**Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer.**Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there.**Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately... **Dhṛṣṭadyumna: *niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ* "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." [*Bg* [[bg/3/8|3.8]]] **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties.**They accuse us that we are escaping...We do not escape. We are always busy... Dhṛṣṭadyumna:**Purport:"There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life.**Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for*kṣatriyas*.**Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder*kṣatriya*. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination.**So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture.**After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities.**Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared.** Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." **Prabhupāda:That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight."** *Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin*. "And the result is already created by Me,**but you have to make a manifestation of fighting.**" Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple (laughs)? **Kīrtanānanda:** A little bit, not too much. **Prabhupāda:**Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor, so I liked it very much. It is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said "Yes, I accept." There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a*karmī*, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit?...They have kept five peacocks. **Hari-śauri:** Seven. **Prabhupāda:** Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. **Kīrtanānanda:** They stay on the grounds? **Hari-śauri:** They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. **Prabhupāda:** They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint they are eating flowers. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** Yes, they are eating all the flowers. **Prabhupāda:They are also trained, they are not afraid.**They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends.**Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions.** Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. **Hari-śauri:** That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Dhṛṣṭadyumna:** As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. **Prabhupāda:Naturally, if he's animal. They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in animals.Devotee:** Except God consciousness. **Prabhupāda:**That is possible in human life.**But animal also can become God conscious by association.Kīrtanānanda:Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories.Prabhupāda:Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise [nevertheless?] love is possible with any living entity.** The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human beings love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa, everyone loves Kṛṣṇa—central point. That is the perfection of love. Ugra-karma in the Factory, New Vrindaban, June 26, 1976: *Bhagavad-gītā* Chapter 16 --- ## Simple Living, Good Health New York, July 14, 1976 Interview With Newsday Newspaper Plain living, high thinking...come to our farms and see how we are living independently...simple living promotes good health **Interviewer:** How important is it to look after physical life? **Prabhupāda:Physical life, so you must keep yourself fit to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not our desire that you become sick and you cannot chant.**But our purpose is to chant and we require the physical necessities just to keep ourselves fit, not more than that. Eating is necessary. Without eating, I will die. So we take Kṛṣṇa*prasādam*, not in the restaurant or hotel anything, no.**We take nice vegetables, nice food grains, rice, wheat, sugar, milk, all vitaminous, full of vitamins. So there is no deficiency of food. Even from food value it is very nice.**We do not unnecessarily kill animals. **Interviewer:** You run farms as well, do you not? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. **Interviewer:** What do they... **Prabhupāda:** So you try to... **Interviewer:Are they working farms, producing farms?Prabhupāda:Yes, there are many farms in your country.** Just now I am coming from New Vrindāban in West Virginia. They are living. If you go sometime, you can see how independently they are living. And there are other farms, New Orleans, and just now we are going tomorrow... **Rāmeśvara:** Pennsylvania. **Prabhupāda:**Pennsylvania.**So we get enough milk, enough food grains, enough fruits. So there is no economic problem. Our purpose is to save time from unnecessary necessities of life, from unnecessary necessities of life, to save time and utilize the time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness.**And so far the body is concerned, as much as it is required take and maintain the body. That's all. **Interviewer:** Your devotees' health is looked after, then. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Interviewer:** By who? **Prabhupāda:They are instructed in that way, plain living, high thinking.Interviewer:** Do you have arrangements with hospitals in case somebody gets sick, and do you watch diet carefully and...? **Prabhupāda:**Oh, yes. Why not? Why not?**Take care of the body. But we keep our habits in such a way that we don't fall sick very often. Living as Kṛṣṇa Lived, Philadelphia, July 15, 1976: Evening Lecture at **Gītā-**N**agarī** Farm --- ## "Smash and Boil with Milk" August 3, 1976, Paris - Room Conversation (additional tape) **Prabhupāda:** ...any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. **Bhagavān:** Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. **Prabhupāda:** Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? **Bhagavān:** When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. **Prabhupāda:**But we can do it very easily.**Sand should be very hot. You can make hot sand, it is not difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some, another pot, and put the hot sands under it and then agitate. And it will puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff, they'll be finished.Bhagavān:** Put the hot sand where? **Prabhupāda:** Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. **Hari-śauri:** Underneath the pot? **Prabhupāda:**Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain.**Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot, the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it.Hari-śauri:** Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed-up grains. That is very good food.Hari-śauri:** Devotees make popcorn. **Bhagavān:** That's another thing. **Prabhupāda:Popcorn, they fry it in*ghee*, hot*ghee*.Hari-śauri:** Not much though, just a little. **Prabhupāda:No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand...Bhagavān:** It's light. **Prabhupāda:Very light. In the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk, very good breakfast. I mean to say all self-dependent.**Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing*grantha*[scripture]. Not for any personal so-called comforts.**We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime.** *Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām*. [From*Bg.*[[bg/9/34|9.34]]: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.]**That is real business...My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice.**Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation. Some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him.**To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure.**They are not very much, nowadays, for upkeep of the home, very...**That, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean.**Ask these*gṛhasthas* to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? **Bhagavān:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** What are the general program for eating? **Bhagavān:** For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. **Prabhupāda:** Chickpeas fried? **Bhagavān:**Boiled, chick peas. And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice,*dāl*,*chapāti*, and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. **Prabhupāda:** That's nice. **Bhagavān:** This, in July, this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. **Prabhupāda:** This year... **Bhagavān:** Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. **Prabhupāda:** Now. **Bhagavān:** It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. **Prabhupāda:** Five times more. **Bhagavān:** Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Bhagavān:Did you get some barley flour?Prabhupāda:** I don't have any. **Hari-śauri:** (laughs) We can't make, it's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into chapātis. It's just too coarse. **Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk.Hari-śauri:** You mean a mortar and pestle? **Prabhupāda:Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste.Hari-śauri:** You want that this evening? **Prabhupāda:** No. **Hari-śauri:** No. Tomorrow morning. **Bhagavān:** We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chick peas. The man said he did not think they can grow. But we have a whole field of chick peas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. **Prabhupāda:Chick peas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious.** A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Protection of Women, Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation with French Commander --- ## Localized Economics India, January 11, 1977 Conversation on Train to Allahabad **Localized economics—a revolutionary social concept...back to the land, back to freedom...education made simple...give everyone a higher taste...how to get good leaders...farms are the futureRāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.Rāmeśvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of...Prabhupāda:**No, no. We shall...**If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.Hari-śauri:** Simplified. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple. **Rāmeśvara:** Completely? **Prabhupāda:**No, at least we shall try to make closed.**And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete.**There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it.**For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...Rāmeśvara:** In America this is becoming the number-one problem—unemployment. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts) **Rāmeśvara:** People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs (?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. (break) ...their so many departments will be closed. **Rāmeśvara:[Localization is] possible in India but not in America.Prabhupāda:** Why? **Rāmeśvara: The American people...consider it backwards.Prabhupāda:That has to be educated, that backward is real life.Rāmeśvara:** They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world... **Prabhupāda:**Where is your freedom?**Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom?**Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom? **Rāmeśvara:** The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time. **Prabhupāda:**Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office.**Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom.**That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom.**You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?Rāmeśvara:** There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day... **Prabhupāda:**No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class:*brāhmaṇas*,*kṣatriyas*, not for anyone,*śūdras*. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do. **Rāmeśvara:** But in America... **Prabhupāda:**No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life,*brāhmaṇa*class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others,*kṣatriya*class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only*brāhmaṇas*, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a*brāhmaṇa*class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college.**So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.Rāmeśvara:** They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things. **Prabhupāda:**Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do?*Anarthas*. Actually it is*anartha*. They have created so many things. **Rāmeśvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.Prabhupāda:"What we'll do?" (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance here.** (train stops) What is this nonsense? **Rāmeśvara:** It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America... **Prabhupāda:** That we want. **Rāmeśvara:** ...we will have to tolerate all these things—cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things. **Prabhupāda:**No.**If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.Rāmeśvara:** Very gradual. **Prabhupāda:** Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education. **Hari-śauri:** We have to make them devotees. **Rāmeśvara:But can all the masses of people become devotees?Prabhupāda:Oh, yes, cent per cent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take*prasāda*.Jagadīśa:People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy.**So if we give them*kīrtana*and*prasādam*, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid?**Economic needs are the main thing.**That's why they... **Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.Rāmeśvara:But they will not give up sex life.Prabhupāda:**No, no.**I don't say that you give up sex life**. **Rāmeśvara:** That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive. **Prabhupāda:**Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will stop sex life.*Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*... [From Śrī Yāmunācārya: "Since my mind has been engaged in the service of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and I have been enjoying an ever new transcendental humor, whenever I think of sex life with a woman, my face at once turns from it, and I spit at the thought.]**If they're really Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life**. That is... **Hari-śauri:** But that position is not very easily attainable. **Prabhupāda:**No, that is not easy.**Therefore we say, "Restrict this."** And this will be possible if he follows our program. **Rāmeśvara:** You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Rāmeśvara:**So that means that**in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be*karmīs*still.Prabhupāda:No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this*prasāda*distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular.**Everything will be...*Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam*. [Cc Antya [[cc/antya/20/12|20.12]]]Śikṣāṣṭaka* 1: "By chanting the names of Kṛṣṇa, the mirror of the heart is cleansed, and the devotee loses interest in everything external.] **Jagadīśa:** In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread. **Rāmeśvara:** That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be... **Jagadīśa:** Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician? **Rāmeśvara:** Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions. **Prabhupāda:** That's a fact. **Rāmeśvara:** In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia. **Jagadīśa:** But Kṛṣṇa consciousness knowledge... **Prabhupāda:** In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory. **Hari-śauri:** They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism. **Rāmeśvara:So when the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?Prabhupāda:It is due to quality of the leaders.Rāmeśvara:** But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious? **Prabhupāda:No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.Rāmeśvara:** So that means the whole mass population... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** Only then will Kṛṣṇa conscious government... **Prabhupāda:** No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see. **Hari-śauri:The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.Prabhupāda:Yes.Jagadīśa:** Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple. **Prabhupāda:** Simple and it is natural also. **Hari-śauri:The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take.Prabhupāda: Our leaders must be very good.Hari-śauri:** That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there. **Prabhupāda:** If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone... **Rāmeśvara:In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.Prabhupāda:It is not church.Rāmeśvara:** But they think of us... **Prabhupāda:** Not stereotyped church. **Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.Prabhupāda:They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture...Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas—hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice.Hari-śauri:** To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness. **Prabhupāda:**Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in...**Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm.** (background talking) **Hari-śauri:He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive.** And also we have to use modern farming tech niques because we have so few men to run the farms. **Prabhupāda:No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.Hari-śauri:Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort?** If it's ready to do that? **Prabhupāda:Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa.**(*japa*) **Rāmeśvara:**In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but**in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.Prabhupāda:Therefore I am [advocating] farms.Rāmeśvara:So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.Prabhupāda:No, let them go to the farm**, New Vrindaban. **Rāmeśvara:**Many people...**Most people in the world, they are*gṛhamedhīs*, and they cannot give it up so easily.Prabhupāda:"No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain*gṛhamedhī*."Jagadīśa:** New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience... **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Jagadīśa:** There has to be some modern convenience. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. Then we shall do that. **Rāmeśvara:But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up... Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways. **Prabhupāda: But you said that there is unemployment also.Rāmeśvara:** To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them... **Prabhupāda:So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.Rāmeśvara:** Yes. But for the mass population... **Prabhupāda:** Well, gradually you will increase and... **Rāmeśvara:** We have to give them something that they can do in their home. **Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. **Rāmeśvara:** Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple. **Prabhupāda:No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.Jagadīśa:** On the farm. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive.Jagadīśa:But for those who are already employed...Rāmeśvara:But most people have jobs.Prabhupāda:** Eh? **Rāmeśvara:** Many people already have their jobs and their families. **Prabhupāda:** All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come. **Rāmeśvara:** But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of... **Prabhupāda:That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry.**(laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come.**Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they'll be jobless.Hari-śauri:** So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this. **Prabhupāda:They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society.** That is the... **Jagadīśa:** If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kṛṣṇa conscious? **Prabhupāda:And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being?** Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is—what is called?—bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being? **Rāmeśvara:** Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers. **Prabhupāda:** But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower. **Rāmeśvara:But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.Prabhupāda:Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get.** This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp... **Rāmeśvara:** Many people think that if you become a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to shave your head. **Prabhupāda:** That is very good. **Rāmeśvara:** But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us. **Prabhupāda:** No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter) **Hari-śauri:** So much inconvenience for washing. **Rāmeśvara:** These are misunderstandings that confuse people. **Prabhupāda:** The whole life is misunderstanding, material life. **Rāmeśvara:** But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing. **Prabhupāda:** Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely." **Rāmeśvara:They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.Prabhupāda:**We say...**We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."Rāmeśvara:** Not change your dress, but change your consciousness. **Prabhupāda:No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.Rāmeśvara:** It's our choice. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to... **Prabhupāda:Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.Rāmeśvara:** Ultimately, it is the best thing. **Prabhupāda:** If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in. Artificial Banking Systems, Bhuvaneśvara, January 21, 1977: Room Conversation --- ## Artificial Banking Systems January 21, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara Room Conversation The Collapse of Artificial Banking **Paper currency is cheating...farm self-sufficiency is insurance against banking collapse...preach by presenting the example of ideal lifeRāmeśvara:**There was one question I had, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You have written in the Third Volume of the First Canto [ SB [[sb/1/17/39 1972|1.17.39]]] different instructions for the Age of Kali, how there'll be compulsory marriage and so on and so on.**And you mentioned about the gold standard, that this is very bad, this artificial standard of monetary exchange.Prabhupāda:** Oh, yes. It is very bad. **Rāmeśvara:** In the future this is something that we should try to correct. **Prabhupāda:** You should introduce coin, real money. **Hari-śauri:** Real gold coins. No paper. **Prabhupāda:**Anyone has got money... It is fact.**And what is this nonsense, keeping some paper and thinking he has got money? How cheating it is going on, from government's side. And therefore artificial inflation.** You can print, so the price is increased. Because you haven't got to pay him real money, you print and pay him, and he will ask, "Give me this money. Then I'll supply." "All right, take." You print and pay. **Rāmeśvara:** It's definitely a means that the government has for controlling. Because they can withdraw money, pull it back out of circulation by increasing the interest the banks give, or they can get more money in... **Prabhupāda:** Anything done artificially. **Rāmeśvara:** They control the amount of interest on loans. It's all standard ized from what they call the Federal Reserve system. This was introduced during the Depression by the bankers. **Prabhupāda:** Whatever they do, when you receive money in the paper it has no value. Bad money. It is bad money. It is not good money. **Rāmeśvara:** Actually most purchasing in America is done on credit now. Even a step beyond paper money is credit, no money, buying on no money, loans. **Prabhupāda:** That is in India also. **Rāmeśvara:We don't find these things in Vedic culture too much.Prabhupāda:There was never paper money.Hari-śauri:** No. They used to... **Prabhupāda:That barter system.**You have got rice; I have got something else. So I give you something; you give me something. **Hari-śauri:** But isn't inflation possible even with coins? Even if you have gold coins, isn't inflation still possible? **Prabhupāda:** No, gold is acceptable by everyone. **Rāmeśvara:** The main point is the barter system. **Hari-śauri:** Yes, well its value is recognized by its purchasing power. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** So you can alter... Say, you have one gold coin. You can alter what it... **Prabhupāda:** No. If you introduce real metal coin, then there will be no inflation. **Hari-śauri:** There's only a certain amount of metal. **Prabhupāda:**That's all right.**The exchange... The more demand, more price.**So suppose here is a spectacle. I am demanding ten*rupees*. So both of you are customer, and you are asking for this spectacle.**Then I am increasing my price. So if you can pay me by printing paper, you'll accept any price. That means artificially price is increased. Is it not?Rāmeśvara:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** So the idea is that with coins the man who has the goods, he can't... **Prabhupāda:**Therefore...**Suppose he has got ten coins; you have got ten coins. I am wanting fifteen coins. So there will be no competition. I have to accept either from you or you, ten coins.Hari-śauri:**Right.**Because there's only that much money.Prabhupāda:**But if I increase price and if you print... If you have got power to print, "All right. Take fifteen coins, er, fifteen*rupees*." But you [can] print and pay me. But if the gold, the coin, is there, you cannot increase on that. **Hari-śauri:** He can't increase the price of the product, and the man who got..., 'cause there's only a certain amount of money there. **Prabhupāda:But I can increase the price provided you pay me. But by printing, it is easier. But if you have to collect coins, that will be difficult, so there will be no artificial increase of...Hari-śauri:** Yes. Coins is a check... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** ...on charging too much. **Prabhupāda:That is wanted. And these rascals, they are artificially printing paper as money.**And I am a rascal; I'm demanding more because I have got customer. **Rāmeśvara:** The difference between Vedic culture and..., the Kṛṣṇa conscious culture and the modern culture is very, very dramatic, very big difference. So the transforming of society... **Prabhupāda:And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products. That's all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.Rāmeśvara:Weaving, cloth.Prabhupāda:**Everything I get.**So I haven't got to go outside for exchange. If you are satisfied in your farm—I am satisfied—then where is question of exchange?**There is no need of artificial...**So this banking, "fanking," everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to keep money in the bank?Hari-śauri:** Who needs it? **Prabhupāda:**(laughs)**So this artificial way of banking, that will be also collapsed.Hari-śauri:** This is revolutionary. **Rāmeśvara:** It's very hard for the mind to... **Prabhupāda:** No, simply do this. **Rāmeśvara:** Such a dramatic transformation of society. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Whatever it may be...**We should be satisfied locally by our food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell. We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do. But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.Hari-śauri:** But still, we're going out to attract people to come to our life-style. **Prabhupāda:** Hm? **Hari-śauri:** We're still going out to attract people to come and live like us. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** Well, even more than that, we know that we have the secret to real life, so it's our duty to actually... Just like you say... **Prabhupāda:** That is preaching. That is preaching. **Rāmeśvara:** ...the surgeon, he must cut. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** The doctor must... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Rāmeśvara:** ...save the patient. It's his duty. **Prabhupāda:No artificial dealing. Purge out.Hari-śauri:** When one actually has the power, he can do that. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hari-śauri:** So by our preaching now, we have to try and establish a Kṛṣṇa consciousness government first through the democratic system. **Rāmeśvara:** You said, "Think in terms of the whole world, not just one nation. That is our preaching." So you are training us to think very big, global. **Prabhupāda: We keep the ideal style of life. You learn and do it. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but if you want to be happy, you follow.**This is our process.*Āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā bhakti*. [From Madhya [[cc/madhya/1/22|1.22]]: "...Through His personal behavior, {He} instructed all living entities in the mode of devotional service.]**You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.**If you make minus Kṛṣṇa consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Hari-śauri:**Only if the chanting and*prasādam* is there. **Prabhupāda:** *Prasādam*, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right. **Hari-śauri:** Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program. **Prabhupāda:** Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind." **Hari-śauri:** A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things. **Prabhupāda:So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Kṛṣṇa.Hari-śauri:** Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar. **Prabhupāda:**No, everything—Deity worship, chanting,*kīrtana*, preaching, publishing, distributing—everything. Varṇāśrama System Must be Introduced, Māyāpur, February 14, 1977: Conversation