# Part 2: Principles of Varṇāśrama ## Mutual Respect in Varṇāśrama Montreal, July 16, 1968 - Room Conversation **Testing success of one's occupation...government grants land to citizens...taxes linked to production...caste system: natural vs. corrupt...in varṇāśrama everyone's position is treated with honorPrabhupāda:**You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example,*dophara gadha*, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use.*Dophara gadha*, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class. In Jagannatha temple the arrangement is that...the *prasādam* is cooked every day in new earthen pot. No old pot is used. Once used, it is thrown away. Formerly, this was the system in India. Even dishes, once used, it is thrown away. No washing. Even golden dishes, silver dishes, once used, it is thrown away. And now golden dishes, there is no use of golden dishes, neither nobody throws it away, but that was the system. Now the earthen dishes... Just like china clay dishes, this is considered impure because it is repeatedly used. In India, those who are strict Hindus, earthen dishes, once used, it will be thrown away. Clay dishes. So this is china clay dish. It is not to be used again. It is thrown away. Just like you have got paper plates and glass here. You eat it and throw it away. Similarly, India... Now it is being introduced, these paper dishes, gradually, but from very old time, refreshment or foodstuff supplied in clay dishes, and after eating, it is thrown away. So there is a potter class, who flourish. They sell their products. Just like in your country also, so many things are thrown away so that the manufacturer get chance to sell again. So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draft board. There is a class, *kṣatriya*; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong.*Jat*. They are called*jat*, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are*jat*class, and the Gurkha, oh,**the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas.** The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Mesopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement. Similarly, in temple, the florist has to supply flowers daily. Mr. Khanvar, am I right? You know this Indian system? **Mr. Khanvar:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business.** But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was [based] on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment...Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and *Bhāgavata* says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called *brāhmaṇas* became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a *brāhmaṇa*is addressed as*paṇḍita* *mahārāja*. A*kṣatriya*is addressed*ṭhākura* *saheb*,*ṭhākur*. And a merchant is addressed:*sethji*. And the laborer class addressed as*chouddhari*, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success...*sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ*[*Bg*[[bg/18/46|18.46]]].*"{By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading} a man can attain perfection through performing his own work.]**Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants *mantra*in the temple. The*kṣatriyas*, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. **Because the land belongs to the*kṣatriya*.**They are royal class. Because they occupy land,**so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight.**They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The*kṣatriyas*, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. **Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the *Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*[Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]. "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section,*varṇa*. So how you can stop? It is natural. So*Bhāgavata*recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing,*ataḥ pumbhir-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ*. [From SB [[sb/1/2/13 1972|1.2.13]]: "O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.] This system of sectional division, this is... "He is*brāhmaṇa*, he is*kṣatriya*, he is*vaiśya*, he is*śūdra*, he is*brahmacārī*, he is householder, he is*vānaprastha*, he is*sannyāsī*." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washer man, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So*Bhāgavata*says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a*kṣatriya*or a*brāhmaṇa* or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life. That is the beauty. You haven't got to change. If somebody says that "Sir, I am potter. How can I be Kṛṣṇa conscious? It requires that one should be a *brāhmaṇa*, one should be very learned man,*Vedānta* philosophy, and one must have the sacred thread, and this and that. So I am a potter. I am a cobbler. I am a washerman." No. Kṛṣṇa says, "No." You do not require to change. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, "You do not require to change." **Kṛṣṇa says that*svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya*. You just try to worship the Supreme Lord by the result of your occupation.** Because Kṛṣṇa requires everything. So if you are a potter, you supply pots. If you are florist, you supply flower. If you are carpenter, you work for temple. If you are washerman, then wash clothing of the temple. Temple is the center, Kṛṣṇa. And everyone gets chance to offer his service. Therefore temple worship is very nice. So this temple should be organized in such a way that we don't require any money. You give your service. That's all. You be engaged in your service. Don't change your service. But you try to serve the—temple means the Supreme Lord—by your occupational duty. **Śivānanda:** ...In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear*Bhagavad-gītā*. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed."**We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome.**Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from*Bhagavad-gītā*,*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. Yes. Different Duties for Different Kinds of People, New Vrindaban, June 9, 1969: Meeting with Devotees --- ## Different Duties for Different Kinds of People New Vrindaban, June 9, 1969 **Balancing work and worship...sannyāsī's role in community development...our mission of making people peaceful and happyPrabhupāda:**In the*Caitanya-caritāmṛta*it is said*, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya*. [From:*Ādi*[[cc/adi/5/142|5.142]]: "Lord Kṛṣṇa alone is the supreme control ler, and all others are His servants...] (baby making noises) (aside:) He will disturb.*Īśvara*.*Īśvara*means master or the controller. Actually only Kṛṣṇa is master. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, or incarnation of Viṣṇu, all of them are, in one sense, even Rādhārāṇī, all are servants.*Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya*. So in that sense, in this New Vrindaban the master is Kṛṣṇa, and we are all servants. But there are division of duties of the servants, and they should discharge. Just like in our propagation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are certain duties entrusted to certain devotee, and if he faithfully carries out that duty, that is his perfection. The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and the duty allotted by him to a certain person, that should be his execution of spiritual duties. **So this New Vrindaban, master is Kṛṣṇa. Now we should specifically divide duties amongst ourselves and discharge such duties faithfully.** Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, as you are growing up to now, the system and the prescription is very nicely being conducted. And this will help us more and more progress. So in this meeting I think we should allot different kinds of duties to different persons and execute. So you say something. [break] ...temple. I don't think it can take more than two hours. **Kīrtanānanda:**We are done*ārati*and*kīrtana* by seven o'clock in the morning. **Prabhupāda:** That's all right. Then the respective duty can be discharged in two, three hours. That's all. Seven to ten. After taking your breakfast you work up to ten. Then you have got enough time. **Kīrtanānanda:** Time for what? **Prabhupāda:Everyone has to make his own routine work, and for chanting and reading and Bhagavad-gītā he requires, say, two to three hours.** So we have got twenty-four hours at our disposal. Out of that, six hours or seven hours for sleeping. So still you have got seventeen hours. And three hours devote for chanting and reading. Still you have got fourteen hours. **Kīrtanānanda:**But we devote at least five hours to*ārati*and*kīrtana*. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. **Satyabhāmā:**Another hour and a half or two hours to*prasādam*. **Śyāma:** Eating? **Satyabhāmā:**Yes. To eating*prasādam*. **Prabhupāda:** Two hours for eating? **Paramānanda:** Eating and taking rest. **Satyabhāmā:**Well, noon*prasādam*, morning*prasādam*, milk in the evening. **Paramānanda:** Morning and evening, half hour, noon, one hour. **Hayagrīva:** Bathing, bathing takes an hour. **Prabhupāda:** So you want to stop chanting and reading? **Satyabhāmā:** No. No. (laughs) **Kīrtanānanda:**We don't want to stop chanting. I don't want to. That's not the proposal. The proposal was... **Satyabhāmā: Which comes first? If... The work seems to have to be done, but the...Prabhupāda:You can forego your sleeping and eating.Satyabhāmā:**Haribol. **Prabhupāda:**The Gosvāmīs were doing like that.*Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau*. They were discharging their duties, and if sometimes they still could not finish the chanting, they would forego their eating and sleeping. Eating and sleeping, say, seven to nine hours. Then we have to sacrifice our sleeping and eating. **Paramānanda:** But the Gosvāmīs, they didn't swing axes all day, did they? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. (chuckles) **Paramānanda:**They didn't do hard physical work. **Prabhupāda:**No, they were writing books. So they were writing. You have to manage. You see? How can I suggest, "You can do this, you can do this"? Everyone has to do. Just like I do my work according to my own routine, you see. Similarly, one has to... But if sometimes, by chance, you do not get any time for reading*Bhagavad-gītā*, that does not harm very much because you are already engaged in*Bhagavad-gītā*. Any duty here in New Vrindaban... Just like Kṛṣṇa was inducing Arjuna to fight. That fighting was also within the program of this devotional service. Similarly, anything working within this New Vrindaban, that is also counted reading*Bhagavad-gītā*. So in some day if you don't find, read*Bhagavad-gītā*, but that chanting must be finished. That is very essential. **Hayagrīva:Can one chant when working?Prabhupāda:**Yes. Why not?**Chanting is the basic standing of our life.Kīrtanānanda:**I think here, as I look at it,**we're spending about five hours a day in*ārati*and*kīrtana*, which, I think, is really good because I think that is the heart of Vṛndāvana.Prabhupāda:**Yes.**That is the life of Vṛndāvana.Kīrtanānanda:** So I don't want to sacrifice that for anything. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That must be... **Kīrtanānanda:**That must be there. That's the heart. **Prabhupāda:You can forego even reading*Bhagavad-gītā*, but that must be continued.Kīrtanānanda:** But now, right now, of course, this is not time for pruning, but I'd like to prune to show people that we really have something. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Kīrtanānanda:** It would be nice for our community. It would be nice for the people who visit us so that they'd be able to see that "Ah, they're able to carry on with their gardening." **Prabhupāda:** No. You also require some fruits for your existence also. Kṛṣṇa will like it. **Kīrtanānanda:**Actually it will help morale if they just have a little better*prasādam*. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And now we require some assistants, more assistants. Yes. So Kṛṣṇa will send. Kṛṣṇa will send gradually. You'll have more men here, and engage them... **Kīrtanānanda:**The way it works out, the afternoon, they never seem to get much done anyway. There's a lot of frustration. Because sometimes I have a feeling like it's a lot of time being wasted, but still it seems very difficult because you figure... Well, suppose*prasādam*were offered at two and you didn't finish up until about three. And then they rest until four. By the time they bathe and everything, it's time to start getting ready for*kīrtana*. **Hayagrīva:**We finished*ārati*and*kīrtana*by six o'clock this morning. That means that the early morning*prasādam* must be ready at six o'clock so we finish by seven and then work from seven to eight to nine to ten to eleven to twelve to one to two. That's eight hours' hard work in the morning. And then the rest of the afternoon off. **Kīrtanānanda:**That's all right. **Hayagrīva:** But we should get at least eight hours' hard work in on the grounds. **Satyabhāmā:** Can the men do that, eight hours' hard work like that without a break? **Hayagrīva:** Sure. I could. **Paramānanda:** That is not enough time, though, in the afternoon for chanting. **Hayagrīva:**What do you mean? The whole afternoon... **Prabhupāda:That is nice, that in the morning you work and after*prasādam*you are at ease, take rest or read or whatever you like.Hayagrīva:** There's plenty of time. From two o'clock until bedtime. That's eight hours. From two to ten. You can't chant sixteen rounds in eight hours? **Paramānanda:**Well, I have to begin my duties with the cow at five o'clock. So we'll be finishing*prasādam* and rest at about four o'clock. That leaves me one hour, which is filled up with other odd chores. **Hayagrīva:** Well, then, if you have to take... You have an extra hour you have to work in the afternoon. You have an extra hour? **Satyabhāmā:**Two hours. **Kīrtanānanda:** Since you milk the cows in the evening like that, you could take an hour or so off early. That would be all right. **Hayagrīva:** Then you can take off at one. If you put in an hour in the afternoon with the cow, then take off an hour from one to two to chant. **Satyabhāmā:** Then we have from seven to eight. **Kīrtanānanda:**We'll try it that way. **Hayagrīva:** Sometimes we're so slow getting started in the morning. **Paramānanda:** It's not enough time because..., that is, if the morning, the entire morning, is to be allotted to the major tasks. 'Cause the thing is, I find, that there are many, many time-consuming little chores to be done, that without which New Vrindaban would be a mess. There are so many little tasks to be done. [break] **Hayagrīva:** I'm president. **Prabhupāda:** You are the president. And who is secretary? **Hayagrīva:** Śyāma dāsī is secretary. **Prabhupāda:** Huh? **Hayagrīva:** Śyāma dāsī. **Prabhupāda:** Śyāma dāsī, secretary. And who is treasurer? **Hayagrīva:** Hṛṣīkeśa. **Prabhupāda:** Hṛṣīkeśa. And what is Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja's position? **Hayagrīva:**He is*maṭha* commander? **Devotee 1:** Prime minister. **Śyāma:** Advisor. Advisor? **Hayagrīva:**General advisor,*maṭha* commander. **Prabhupāda:**The*maṭha*commander... Of course, so far the management of the New Vrindaban affairs is concerned, that is within*maṭha* commander's jurisdiction? **Hayagrīva:** I don't know. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.***Maṭha*commander means the, everything of that place under his command.Hayagrīva:** That's not good. Then advisor is better. Advisor would be better. **Prabhupāda:** Advisor means his advice will be final? **Hayagrīva:** Advice final? That means the advice would be depending on the president. **Prabhupāda:**Confirmed by the president. So honorary advisor. Advice*gratis*? **Hayagrīva:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:**(Chuckling) No. Another thing is that, as I suggested, that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja,**being*sannyāsī*, he should be given the top post to give honor to the position of a sannyāsī. Otherwise in our society there is no meaning of a*sannyāsī*.Hayagrīva:** So you want him to be president? **Prabhupāda:**I think he should be, like that. You become secretary, and Śyāma dāsī become assistant secretary. Of course, everything should be decided in a meeting, and president maybe have as a casting vote, but the decision of the meeting will be actually the decision.**Not that president autocracy, no.**Or he may be president, you may be vice president and others, Śyāma dāsī, secretary, and treasurer he is.**From*sampradāya*point of view,*sannyāsī*has to be given the top post.** Do you think he will overrule you? (Laughs)... So I think... Then the difficulty is that you say that whatever you decide, he says no? **Hayagrīva:** If I don't want this tree to be cut down and he says, "Cut down the tree," does the tree get cut down? That's what I want to know. I say, "I want this tree to stay here." He says, "We want to burn it for firewood." Now does the tree stay or does it go? **Prabhupāda:** Well, if... This deposition is very difficult to solve. (laughing) You want to stay, and he wants to burn it. (laughing) **Hayagrīva:** Yes. I mean it will come down to something very basic like this, something very simple. Now you said that according to you it should be burned. According to you... If the president is in charge, then if he says to cut it down, it gets cut down. **Prabhupāda:**No.**The committee. The majority decision will be...Hayagrīva:**That's democracy.**That's democracy.**That's no good. **Prabhupāda:** Democracy? This is the age of... **Hayagrīva:I thought you said we should have enlightened monarchy.Prabhupāda:**No.**Monarchy is out of date now. When you form a committee...** But what can I say? If you disagree in that way, then... If you have to live together, you have to work together; if you disagree in that way, it will be a difficult job. **Hayagrīva:** Well, I don't care. I'll leave it up to you then. I'll leave it up to you. You can do what you want. **Prabhupāda:**No... You... My... I have explained. He is... As a*sannyāsī*, he should live everywhere temporarily just like I live temporarily.*Aniketa*.**A*sannyāsī*should not have a permanent place. Anywhere he goes, temporary. So because you think that his service is required, then he should remain here. Otherwise, as he has accepted*sannyāsa*order, he should travel, go and preach.** And especially nowadays, I cannot go everywhere. He can go, and he can recruit members. He can make propaganda of New Vrindaban to many persons, to the, I mean to say, foundations. As I have suggested, make pamphlet. So he can do outside work very nicely for developing Vṛndāvana. **Hayagrīva:How much of his time do you think should be spent doing this?Prabhupāda:** Which one? **Hayagrīva:** Preaching and traveling. **Prabhupāda:He should always preach and travel. Always.** There is immense field here. He should convince people that we are developing such centers. And you make a nice literature, picture. You go. He is educated. He is intelligent. He has studied our philosophy. He can go and speak. **Hayagrīva:** But he shouldn't stay here at all. **Prabhupāda:** No. He can come. He stay for some time and go, in that way. That... When he comes here you take his advice, what to do, and then you execute in that way. The final is yourself, whatever you do. He will come and... Now, for developing this center we must require so many things. So he can do the outside work... So we have to develop this center from outside work and inside work. **Outside work means to draw sympathy of the people, to draw money for development.**This is also required. We have got a very big scheme. It is not possible that by one man's earning we can do that. It is not possible.**We require millions of dollars for developing.**If we want to construct here temples, at least seven temples, nicely, so that requires huge amount.**So outsiders' sympathy must be there.**There is no scarcity of money in your country. Simply they have to be educated that "We are doing something very nice. Please come and help." And that will be nice, in my opinion, that let him come, stay here for one month, again go out for two months, again come here. And he sees how things are going on. He suggests. Now you decide whether his suggestion will be accepted or not. Then I am there, of course. If there is some suggestion, good suggestion. then my order will be final. In that way we have to develop this. **Hayagrīva:** Well, are you leaving the decision up to me or what? Are you leaving the decision up to me? **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**Local management, your decision, yes...**People must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes. So make literature. Make nice literature with picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain*brahmacārī*, not to marry...They can also take up.***Brahmācari*and*sannyāsī*is meant for moving. Yes.*Gṛhastha*cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the*brahmacārīs*, they will go and beg contribution. A*sannyāsī*will make the situation favorable.**Just like if now a little more, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some*brahmacārī* goes, that "We come from the..." ...So he remains as consultant. Your proposal, that you remain president, he is secretary, and treasurer, and he is consultant so long he is here and when he comes. **Hayagrīva:** So he can be... He'll be general supervisor? **Prabhupāda:**Yes. Naturally when he comes, he becomes overhead everyone, when he comes, because he is a*sannyāsī*.**Just like here, when I am present, you take all final decision from me, so that should be the honor of the*sannyāsī*.** But he should actually... He is not in charge of this place. Just like in other centers the president, secretary, are in charge. **Hayagrīva:**So that's not called*maṭha* commander. That's called general supervisor. **Prabhupāda:** He will be, for the time being, the superintendent of the society. He will go everywhere and see and report me what, how things are going on. And then we are going to make a central committee gradually. Everything will be done. Let us work very seriously and sincerely. Everything will come out. **Hayagrīva:** So then Śyāma dāsī is our treasurer..., secretary. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. And he is treasurer, Hṛṣīkeśa? **Hayagrīva:** He's treasurer and temple commander. **Prabhupāda:** No, what...? You president, she is secretary, and then? Treasurer? **Hayagrīva:** He could be also vice president or temple... Well, there has to be a second charge, another person in charge. **Prabhupāda:** That you select, who should be vice president. **Hayagrīva:** Temple commander. **Prabhupāda:** No. Because you president, you can select out of all the workers... **Hayagrīva:** Not many. **Prabhupāda:** ...who will be nicely representing you. That's your trust. **Hṛṣīkeśa:** There will be more workers. More will come. There are more people coming all the time, aren't they? **Hayagrīva:** Well, if they'll stay on a permanent basis. **Devotee:** Why not? It's such a nice place. **Hayagrīva:** Yes, but I mean all this time we only... We don't have... Not many on a permanent basis. **Devotee:** You won't be leaving until September. You won't be leaving until September? **Hayagrīva:** Well, I don't know. I may. [break] **Prabhupāda:**...Kali-yuga, everything should be managed by society. In*Bhāgavata* also. Yes. **Hayagrīva:** Oh, democracy. In Kali-yuga, democracy. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Society. Body. **Hayagrīva:**This is not best.**This is not best. You mention that in the books, that this is not very good.Prabhupāda:This is not very good in this sense... But at that time one man was so advanced that his order was perfect.**Actually these kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit and others, they were consulting learned*brāhmaṇas*, not that they were actually autocrat. No. They used to consult how the government should be conducted. **Kīrtanānanda:**They had a council of*brāhmaṇas*. **Prabhupāda:**Yes, council of*brāhmaṇas*. Yes. The*brāhmaṇas*, they are not politicians, but**they would give from*śāstra*direction, "You are a king. You do like this."Kīrtanānanda:**There were instances when the king wouldn't follow the*brāhmaṇas*, so they were thrown out, weren't they? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. There were such instances also. Just like Prthu Mahārāja. His father was dethroned. I think same thing was in England also, the knights. If they liked, they dethroned the king. **Kīrtanānanda:** Not exactly the knights. They were more... **Prabhupāda:** Noblemen. Yes. The knights are different? **Kīrtanānanda:** Yes. Knights were fighting men. **Satyabhāmā:**They're warriors. Knights were like*kṣatriya*. **Prabhupāda:** Oh. Oh. And noblemen? **Kīrtanānanda:** They were the lords. They were... **Satyabhāmā:**There were no*brāhmaṇas*, though. (laughs) **Śyāma:** There were bishops. **Kīrtanānanda:**Not exactly*brāhmaṇas*. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them. **Prabhupāda:**Aristocrats.The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called*zamindari*. [break] **Hayagrīva:** Well, in order to develop the place properly, we're going to need people who are dedicating themselves, not just fly-by-night, people who come and stay for a week and then go. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, they will come. **Hayagrīva:** But we're going to need people who stay here permanently. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Some people will... At least fifty men should live here permanently. That I shall arrange. **Hayagrīva:** Fifty. **Prabhupāda:** Fifty at least. Otherwise this big property, how it can be managed? At least fifty men. At least. It may go to two hundred. **Kīrtanānanda:** On this property? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Devotee:** Haribol. **Prabhupāda:** This whole property. We have to manage so many temples. **Kīrtanānanda:** The conservation people estimate that this land will support eighteen people. **Hayagrīva:** Well, that's materialists. **Kīrtanānanda:** Thirty people, I think. **Hayagrīva:** That's a materialistic calculation. **Kīrtanānanda:So if you want one cow for every person, it would only support eighteen cows.Prabhupāda:Eighteen cows? The whole property?Kīrtanānanda: If you want them to be self-sufficient, you have to grow grain for them for the winter.Prabhupāda:** All right. Let eighteen people first of all. Then we shall share, eighteen people. You see? **Hayagrīva:** One cow per person. We're all going to end up with the gout. **Prabhupāda:** No. They don't calculate one cow, one person. They calculate only cow. And that does not mean eighteen persons will only remain. **Hayagrīva: I think a cow can do four or five people nicely.Prabhupāda:** Yes. Why not? No... I calculated, one cow per one person means the milk products he can sell, he can get other necessities of life in that way. Yes. And otherwise, one cow's milk, it can be shared by ten people at least. **Hayagrīva:So eighteen cows, that's 180 people. I mean, could support that many people on the farm.Prabhupāda:** Not support. **Devotee:** Give them milk. **Hayagrīva:** Oh, give them milk. **Prabhupāda:** Milk, yes. Milk products. **Kīrtanānanda:I think you could keep fifty cows on this property if you bought your grain and hay from outside.Prabhupāda:**Yes.**That we have to do. We cannot get everything. If we construct temple, we will require so many things. It is not possible to be self-sufficient within this land. We have to get so many things outside. That means we have to get money from outside.**Yes. **Satyabhāmā:** Can we put requests in the next news, next New Vrindaban newsletter, for people who, devotees who are interested that they should come? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Satyabhāmā:** Because many people don't know that they can come, that there's any facility or that they are wanted here. **Hayagrīva:** Well, there is no facility. **Prabhupāda:** Now first of all... **Satyabhāmā:** The barn. **Prabhupāda:** ...repair that barn immediately so you can... At least ten people can live there. **Satyabhāmā:** If there were people here, then facilities could be built. But if there are no people... **Prabhupāda:** You'll get everything, men and money both. **Hayagrīva:** Have you any plans yet to go to England? Is anything definite? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That plan is pending. But I have just now received letter from Mukunda that they are negotiating three houses. Out of that, one they must get. And if they invite me, then I shall go. That is already settled. But I don't wish to go unless they have got their own house. I have waited so long, so I don't wish to go as a third person. I must go... Just like I have come here definite, New Vrindaban, similarly, when they get nice temple I go and open it. **Kīrtanānanda:** Then it may be some time yet. **Prabhupāda:**(chuckles) And that*mataji*, she has taken land. I don't like that idea. Some**Hindus are supporting. I don't want a Hindu temple. Our constitution is different. We want everyone.** Kṛṣṇa consciousness is for everyone. It is not a Hindu propaganda. People may not misunderstand. And actually, till now in our society there is not a single other Hindu than me. (laughter) Is that not? Spiritual Communism, Moscow, June 22, 1971: Conversation with Professor Kotovsky --- ## Spiritual Communism Moscow, June 22, 1971 Conversation With Professor Kotovsky HIGHLIGHTS: **Varṇāśrama cannot be artificially abolished...it will exist in one form or another in every societyNote:** In 1971, during his historic visit to the Soviet Union, Śrīla Prabhupāda was introduced to Professor Grigoriy Kotovsky, head of the India Department at the U.S.S.R. Academy of Sciences and chairman of the Indian studies department at the University of Moscow. As they sat informally in Dr. Kotovsky's office, the spiritual leader and the communist scholar vigorously discussed topics of mutual concern, and Śrīla Prabhupāda proposed a radical reformation of the communist system. **Prabhupāda:**Modern sociology is targeting the state or the people as the owner of a certain state, but our Vedic conception is*īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ*[Īśo mantra 1]: "Everything is owned by Īśa, the Supreme Controller."*Tena tyaktena bhuṣjīthā*: "What is given by Him, allotted to you, you enjoy that."*Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam*: "But do not encroach upon others' property." This is*Īśopaniṣad*,*Vedas*. And the same idea is explained in different*Purāṇas*... The other day I was reading in the, that paper, *Moscow News*, there was a congress, Communist congress, and the president declared that "We are ready to get others' experience to improve." So I think the Vedic concept of socialism or communism will much improve the idea of communism. Just like we are thinking in terms of human beings, in the socialistic state, that "Nobody should starve. Everyone must have his food."**And in the Vedic conception of*gṛhastha*, householder, it is recommended there that a householder shall see that even a lizard living in the room or even a snake living in that house should not starve. They should be also given food. And what to speak of others?**The*gṛhastha*, before taking his lunch, he is recommended to stand on the road and declare that "If anybody is still hungry, please come. Food is ready." Then, if there is no response, then the proprietor of the household life, he takes his lunch. In this way there are so many good concept about this socialistic idea of communism. So I thought that these ideas might have been distributed to some of your thoughtful men. Therefore I was anxious to speak with you. **Prof. Kotovsky:**Yes, you know, what is interesting... As it is here in our country, with our great interest in the history of old, old god, from this point of view our institute translated into Russian and published many, I may say, literary monuments of great Indian culture. I will have a pleasure to present you a copy of a booklet which was written here by me and my colleagues. It's account of Soviet studies of India. And here there is chapter, chapter second, "Studies of Ancient Indian Texts in the U.S.S.R.. ." You'll be interested to discover, we published not all but some, some in exceptions,*Purāṇas*. We published most of them, then some parts of*Rāmāyaṇa*, eight volumes in Russian,*Mahābhārata*... **Prabhupāda:**Now, amongst these*Purāṇas*, the*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*is called the*Mahā-purāṇa*. **Prof. Kotovsky:** *Mahā-purāṇa*. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. So we have translated in English the full, with the original Sanskrit text, its transliteration, an English equivalent for each word, then translation, and then purport, explanation of the verse. In this way there are 18,000's of verses in*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. And the*ācāryas*, the great saintly sages who are the preachers of this*Bhāgavatam*through out India, their opinion is that it is the ripened fruit of the Vedic desire tree.*Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ idam*. [SB [[sb/1/1/3 1972|1.1.3]]]: "{O expert and thoughtful men, relish*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*} the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures.] And it is accepted by all, I mean, Indian scholars, and especially Lord Caitanya, He preached this*Bhāgavata*. So we have got that, complete in English translation. If you want to see some of them, we can show you... **Prof. Kotovsky:** In Leningrad now we have now a branch of our institute dealing mainly... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...with the history of Asiatic culture...Here is a sample account of our book. You will find here some account of what has been translated and what else is being done in the history of Indian philosophy, and now with this Indian philosophy, history of Indian religion, and now with this Indian..., what is Hinduism now, just now in India also. It is very simple account of... **Prabhupāda:** Hinduism is a very complex term. (laughs) **Prof. Kotovsky:** Oh, yes, Hinduism. It is not all... It is really... To my understanding it is not religion from European point of view. It is a really a way of life... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...religion, Indian, a way of philosophy, a way of life, a religion, everything... **Prabhupāda:No, this Hinduism, Hindu, this word, is not a Sanskrit word. It is given by the Mohammedans. You know there is a river, Indus, which is..., Sanskrit name is Sindhu. Sindhu.Prof. Kotovsky:** Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. **Prabhupāda:** These Mohammedans, they pronounce "S" as "H." "Hindus," "Hindus." Instead of (sic:) "Hindus," they made it "Hindus." So Hindu is a term which is not found in the Sanskrit dictionary. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:**But it has come into use. But the real cultural institution is called*varṇāśrama*, four*varṇas*and four*āśramas*:*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*—these four*varṇas*-and*brahmacārī*,*gṛhastha*,*vānaprastha*, and*sannyāsa*.**So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution of*varṇa*and*āśrama*, four*varṇas*and four*āśramas*, actually he does not become a civilized human being**...One has to take this process, four divisions of*varṇas*and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called*varṇāśrama*. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system,*varṇa*and*āśrama*. **Prof. Kotovsky:** *Varnāśrama*. **Prabhupāda:** *Varṇa*,*varṇāśrama*. And in the*Bhagavad-gītā*—perhaps you have read*Bhagavad-gītā*—there is also the statement,*cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ*[Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]. It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu.**So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, like the Sun**. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere.**Similarly, this*varṇāśrama*system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other.**Just like the*brāhmaṇas*. The*brāhmaṇas*means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the*kṣatriyas*, the administrator class. Then the*vaiśyas*, the productive class, and the*śūdras*, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And**because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere,*varṇāśrama-dharma*.Prof. Kotovsky:**But you know, what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this*varṇāśrama* system... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:**...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old*sūtras*, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society.**And there is an opinion that this*varṇāśrama*system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era** but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... [break]....about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information. **Prabhupāda:**But so far... So far we are concerned, this*Bhagavad-gītā*... It is mentioned in the*Bhagavad-gītā*,*cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam*[Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]. Now, this*Bhagavad-gītā*was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the*Bhagavad-gītā*it is said that "This system of*Bhagavad-gītā* was first spoken by Me to the Sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions? **Prof. Kotovsky:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:So we have got evidences that his*varṇāśrama*system is current at least for the five thousand years,*varṇāśrama*system.**And this*varṇāśrama*system is mentioned in the*Viṣṇu Purāṇa*also.*Varnāśramā caravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān*[*Cc Madhya*[[cc/madhya/8/58|8.58]]] [*Viṣṇu Purāṇa*3.8.9].*Varnāśrama acaravata*. So that is stated in the*Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. And so*varṇāśrama-dharma* is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. In the *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly,**by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body**. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation. **Prof. Kotovsky:**According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance,**in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers?Prabhupāda:Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men.Prof. Kotovsky:** Intelligent, yes, so... **Prabhupāda:So this is a division.Prof. Kotovsky:**Yes, intelligent class, for instance,*brāhmaṇas*, if you can put together also with intelligentsia under the*brāhmaṇas*... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:Then administrative staff...Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...everywhere. **Prabhupāda:*Kṣatriya*.Prof. Kotovsky:**From top to... From top to collective farm, for instance, is*kṣatriyas*. But who would be here*vaiśya*and who*śūdra*? That is the difficulty because all others will be workers—factory workers, collective farm workers and so on. So from this point of view... **Prabhupāda:** From this point of view... **Prof. Kotovsky:**...there is a great distinction, in my opinion, between socialist society and all societies preceding socialist because in a modern western society you can group all social professions, classes, for instance, practically, very conditionally, you know, at least you can, the*brāhmaṇas*,*kṣatriyas*... Excuse me... Then this*vaiśya*, this productive class, is owners... **Prabhupāda:** That is... **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...of the means of production... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...these factory owners, for instance. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:And the*śūdras*are workers, menial workers. But here you have no*vaiśyas***from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them*kṣatriyas*. And then*śūdras*, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class. **Prabhupāda:**That is stated,*kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ*:**"In this age practi cally all men will be*śūdras*."**That is... That is predicted.**But if there are simply*śūdras*, then the social order will be destroyed.**You... Just like in spite of your state of*śūdras*, a*brāhmaṇa*is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may...**You may belong for the time being to the*śūdra*class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the*śūdras*to become*brāhmaṇa*, some of the*śūdras*to become*kṣatriyas*. You cannot depend on the*śūdras*. Then there will be chaos.**Neither you can depend only on*brāhmaṇa*. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. **The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos.**It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a *kṣatriya*king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization.**So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work.**That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception.*Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ*. They say,*mukha*...*Mukha*means the face.*Bahu*means the arm.*Uru*means this, this, or waist. And*pada*. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—**unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.Prof. Kotovsky:**Generally it seems to me that this old*varṇāśrama* system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very... **Prabhupāda:** Not complicated. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because... **Prabhupāda:The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a*brāhmaṇa*, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be*brāhmaṇa*, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as*brāhmaṇa*.**Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere*brāhmaṇas*, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a*brāhmaṇa*. Just like here, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, although he was a monarch, he had a body of learned sages and*brāhmaṇas*to consult, advisory body. It is not that the monarchs were independent. In the history it is found that some of the monarchs were not in order. They were dethroned by the brahminical advisory committee. Although the*brāhmaṇas*, they did not take part in politics, but they would give advice to the monarch how to, I mean to say, execute the royal function. Just like not, not very old, very, say, about... What is the age of, I mean to say, Aśoka? Say about thousands of years ago. **Prof. Kotovsky:** As we call from our... In our terminology we call, in ancient and medieval India... **Prabhupāda:** Med... Yes. In medieval India. **Prof. Kotovsky:**...and old and feudal India, you are right, this was very often. And from*brāhmaṇas*the major part of height is(?) religious stuff (?) (rigid stock) in religious department(?). Even Mogul emperors, there were*brāhmaṇas* who advised modern Mogul emperors... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...in administration... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...and such like. **Prabhupāda:**Our predecessor*ācārya*, Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was finance minister in the Mohammadan government. He was. When he resigned, the Nawab was not very satisfied, that "I cannot relieve you because you are my right hand man. If you resign all of a sudden in this way, then I shall arrest you." There is a long history. So that's a fact.**The brāhmaṇas were kept [as] advisory committee of the king...**Now, as I was going to speak, the latest Hindu king, Candragupta...is the age of Alexander the Great because a little before Candragupta, Alexander the Great from Greece, they went to India and conquered some portion. So this Candragupta, when he became emperor, he had his prime minister, Canakya. Perhaps you heard this name, Canak... Ca-na-kya. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Canakya. Oh, yes. **Prabhupāda:**Yes. He was a great politician,*brāhmaṇa*. And under whose name in New Delhi all the foreign embassies, they are flocked together. Yes. It is called Canakya Purī. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Hm hm. Canakya Purī, yes, I know. **Prabhupāda:**So this Canakya Paṇḍita was a great politician and*brāhmaṇa*. And as*brāhmaṇa*, he was vastly learned. He has got some moral instruc tion. They're very valuable, still going on. In India school children are taught.**So this Canakya Paṇḍita, although he was prime minister, he maintained his brahminical spirit.**He was not accepting any salary, yes, because for*brāhmaṇas*to accept salary, it is understood that he becomes a dog. That is stated in the*Śrīmad-Bhāgavata*. He can advise, but he cannot accept.**So he was living in a cottage, but he was prime minister.**So this brahminical culture, the brahminical brain, is the standard of Vedic civilization...So many things they're changing. But before this modern age the whole Hindu society was being governed by*Manu-smṛti*. **Prof. Kotovsky:** In all periods in India... **Prabhupāda:** *Manu-smṛti*. Now they are changing so many. Strictly speaking, the modern Hindus, they are not strictly according to the Hindu scripture. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Oh, yes. **Prabhupāda:**No. They are not...**So our point is, we are not going to bring back the old type of Hindu society. It is not that.Prof. Kotovsky:** It is impossible. **Prabhupāda:**It is impossible.**Our idea is that best ideas from the original idea.**Just like in the*Bhāgavata*there is a description of communistic idea, and it is being described to Mahārāja Yudhisthira.**So if there is something good, good experience, why it should not be adopted?**That is our point of view...In the modern civilization the ultimate goal, aim, is sense gratification. That's all. Beyond that, they do not know anything more. They do not know what is next life. There is no department of knowledge or science, scientific department, to study what is there after life, after finishing this body. That is a great, I mean to say, department of knowledge... **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...What I am most interested in is, for instance, not a student but a young worker or a young son of a farmer—he would abstain from his old life and he would be initiated and join your community into a given center. How he would entertain himself?...Would he be paid to stay in that center? **Prabhupāda:**...**This propaganda is meant for creating some*brāhmaṇas*all over the world because the*brāhmaṇa*element is lacking**, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a*brāhmaṇa*. So he has to adopt the occupation of a*brāhmaṇa*, and he has to give up the occupation of a*kṣatriya*or a*śūdra*. **But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed.**Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For*gṛhasthas*, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live...**So far we are concerned, we are*sannyāsī*, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg.**But I am a*sannyāsī*. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. **So we have got four orders**. Just like he's*brahmacārī*, and he's*gṛhastha*. He has got his wife, children. So he's a*gṛhastha*. He's a*brahmacārī*. Similarly, there is*sannyāsī*. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching.**It doesn't matter whether one is a*gṛhastha*, householder, or renounced order or a*brahmacārī*or a*brāhmaṇa*or*śūdra*. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master.** The exact word is, in Bengali: > kibā vipra, kibā nyāsī, śūdra kene naya yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya [Cc Madhya [[cc/madhya/8/128|8.128]]] Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become... **Prof. Kotovsky:** *Guru*. **Prabhupāda:** ...the spiritual master. **Prof. Kotovsky:**I understand.**But in generally, by creating*brāhmaṇas*from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script..**Because according to old script, the*Purāṇas*, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these*varṇas*... **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Prof. Kotovsky:...is to be born inside it...Prabhupāda:** No, no, no. **Prof. Kotovsky:** ...but not appointed. **Prabhupāda:** No, no, no, no. No, no, no. **Prof. Kotovsky:** This is the major... **Prabhupāda:** No, no... I am sorry... **Prof. Kotovsky:**...foundation of all the*varṇas*. **Prabhupāda:**You are not speaking correctly...With great respect**I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly.**In the*Bhagavad-gītā*it is stated,*cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*: [Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]] "These four orders of*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*is created by Me according to quality and work."**There is no mention of birth.**There is no mention of birth. **Prof. Kotovsky:**Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late*brāhmaṇas* who tried to... **Prabhupāda:**No, that,**that has killed the Indian culture.** You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhārata-varṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And lately, they have separated Pakistan. So Bhārata-varṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise...according to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this whole planet is called Bhārata-varṣa... **Prof. Kotovsky:Have you come across some hostile attitude to your teaching from orthodox Hindu, from orthodox*brāhmaṇas*in India itself?Prabhupāda:** But rather, we have subdued them. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Ah, yes. **Prabhupāda:**...**Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences.** So nobody has come... **Prof. Kotovsky:** And how many disciples you have in India itself? From three thousand, how many members of your community you have in India itself? **Prabhupāda:** In India? **Prof. Kotovsky:** Yes. **Prabhupāda:** And India, there are many Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, hundred thousands, millions. India, there is no question. There is not a single Hindu who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Yes, I understand, but this, especially, specifically... **Prabhupāda:** Vaiṣṇava. This is called Vaiṣṇava cult. The Vaiṣṇavas, as you know—you have been in India—there are many millions of Vaiṣṇavas. **Prof. Kotovsky:** Oh, yes. **Prabhupāda:**Many millions of Vaiṣṇavas and... Just like this gentleman. He is a commander of the Air, India Air Lines. So he's not my disciple, but he's a Vaiṣṇava, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, in India millions and trillions there are, Kṛṣṇa conscious persons. And practically there is not a single...**Even there are Mohammedans who are Kṛṣṇa conscious.** In Allahabad University there is a Mohammadan professor. He's a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So this is natural. It is said in the *Caitanya-caritāmṛta*that Kṛṣṇa con sciousness is everywhere, in everyone's heart. It has to be awakened only by this process. That's all. It is there in your heart also. It is not that it is foreign to you. It is not that. In everyone's heart, there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By this process we have to awaken that.*Śravaṇādi śuddha citte karaye udaya.*[From Madhya 22.107: "Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, the living entity naturally awakens.]*Udaya*. You know this word*udaya*. Just like sun rises. It is not that sun all of a sudden comes from somewhere. It is there, but it rises in the morning. Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is everywhere, but some way or other, it is now covered. By this process it is awakened and aroused, by association... The other day...in Bombay, I think, I was speaking some respectable gentlemen that "Kṛṣṇa says: > māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim [Bg [[bg/9/32|9.32]]] Kṛṣṇa says, 'Even those who are low-born, *pāpa-yoni*—the*striya*,*vaiśya*and*śūdra*, they are also included—but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter, they are also elevated to the transcendental position.'**Now, why the higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of*Bhagavad-gītā*?**Suppose one is*pāpa-yoni*. Kṛṣṇa says that 'They can be elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.' Why this propaganda was not done by the higher class people so that the so-called*pāpa-yoni*could be elevated? Why you rejected them?**The result was that the Mohammedans... Instead of accepting them, you rejected them, and they have partitioned, and they have gone away, and they have become eternal enemy of India.**" You see? So this is the first time that we are trying to elevate to the highest position of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even one is in the *pāpa-yoni*. It doesn't matter because soul is pure.*Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ*. The*Vedas* says, "The soul is untouched by any material contamination." Simply, temporarily, he is covered. This covering should be opened. Then he becomes pure. That is the mission of human life, to uncover ourselves from this material envelopment and come to the spiritual understanding, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Get All Your Necessities from the Land, London, November 25, 1973: *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*1.10.4 --- ## Not by Birth, But by Training Hyderabad, August 22, 1976 Conversation with Seven Ministers Of Andhra Pradesh **Government should be scripture-based...training for the social bodyPrabhupāda:**Our subject matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that systematize...**The**progress of human society should be systematized according to*śāstra*. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called*śāstra*.*Śās-dhātu*means to rule. From*Śās-dhātu*,*śāstra*and*śastra*.*Śastra*means weapon. If you do not act according to the*śāstra*then there is*śastra*.*Śastra*means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same*śās-dhātu*is*śiṣya*, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline. > yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim [*Bg*[[bg/16/23|16.23]]: "He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.] The aim of human life is*parāṁ gatim*.*Parāṁ gatim*means the supreme perfection.*Gatim*means progress, and*parām* means the supreme. Our life is progressive... So nature's law is there, *prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ*. [Bg [[bg/3/27|3.27]]]: "The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.] We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature.**So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress**. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the *śāstra*. The*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*.**To maintain the body, just like we require the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs, similarly, we must maintain the brain of the society, the*brāhmaṇa*; and the arms of the society,*kṣatriyas*; and the belly of the society, the*vaiśyas*; and the legs of the society, the*śūdra*. Everything is required. Not that simply brain is required and leg is not required.**No, everything is required under proper guidance for the total benefit of the society. So direction is there. That is*śāstra*.*Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya*...**If we do not care for the*śāstra*, whimsically manufacture our own ways of life,*na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti*, it will never be successful.***Na sukham*. And there will be no happiness.*Na parāṁ gatim.* Therefore the whole process is *yajñārthāt karmaṇa*.*Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ*[Bg [[bg/3/9|3.9]]]. Yajña means the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu.*Yajña*means*yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ*. After performing*yajña*, if we enjoy life, then there is no sinful reaction. Otherwise,*bhuṣjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt*. [From*Bg.*[[bg/3/13|3.13]]: "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin.] So all directions are there in the śāstra, and the essence of all Vedic literature is the*Bhagavad-gītā*. So at the present moment, our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that it doesn't matter what kind of state it is, but it should follow the principle of*yajña*.*Yajñārthe karmaṇa*. Otherwise, we shall be responsible... This is the principle. *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ*. [Bg [[bg/3/9|3.9]]]: "Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage.]**I have seen in Bālajī temple, mostly cultivators, they come, stand whole day there just to offer something,*yajñārthe*, for the satisfaction of the Lord. It's a great culture.***Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra*. So*karma*, ordinary fruitive activities should be carried on for*yajñārthe*, for the satisfaction of Bālajī, or Kṛṣṇa. Not otherwise. The same, what is gathered as contribution, it should be utilized for*yajña*. Because the money is given for*yajña*, not for other purposes. That is a fact. Of course, the money is there. The innocent villagers, they have given the money in good faith that Kṛṣṇa or Bālajī will accept it and their hard labor will be successful.*Yajñārthe karmaṇa*. Now that money should be properly utilized for*yajñārthe*. Actually, everything belongs to God, Bālajī. *Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam*[Īśo mantra 1]. We are claiming unnecessarily, "This is mine." That is called*māyā*. Nothing belongs to us. Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. But we have claimed the Lord's property as our own. That is misgiving. Therefore*yajña*is recommended. Return to the Supreme voluntarily. That is called*yajña*. > varṇāśramācāra-vatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam [*Cc Madhya* [[cc/madhya/8/58|8.58]]] [*Viṣṇu Purāṇa*3.8.9: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṇu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varṇa and āśrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four*varṇas*and*āśramas*.]**The*varṇāśrama-dharma*,*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform*yajña*.***Varṇāśramā cāra-vatā*. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization.*Varṇāśrama*. How to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called*yajña*.*Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ*[Bg [[bg/3/9|3.9]]]. So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering....That is stated in the*Bhagavad-gītā*: > ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [*Bg*[[bg/11/1|11.1]]: "Arjuna said: By my hearing the instructions You have kindly given me about these most confidential spiritual subjects, my illusion has now been dispelled.]**This*idaṁ guhyam*, this confidential knowledge of*Bhagavad-gītā*, should be spread all over the world. People are suffering.** And that is the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He advises that > yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa āmāra ājñāya guru haṣā tāra' ei deśa [Cc Madhya [[cc/madhya/7/128|7.128]]] [*Cc Madhya*7.128: "Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa as they are given in the*Bhagavad-gītā*and*Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]**So it will be glory of India if we preach the message of Kṛṣṇa,*Bhagavad-gītā*.**They're accepting. And I wish that the Bālajī's estate, Bālajī's money, should be spent for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for any other purpose. That is my request. **Devotees:** Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. **Indian:** Please permit... **Prabhupāda:** Your question is? **Indian:**Yes,*varṇāśrama*, I wanted to, Swamiji... **Prabhupāda:**Yes.*Varṇāśramācāra-vatā*.**The*varṇa*and*āśrama*I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly,*varṇāśrama*means the head—*brāhmaṇa*; the arms—*kṣatriya*; the belly—*vaiśya*; and the leg—*śūdra*. So by nature these divisions are there.*Varṇa*, four*varṇas*and four*āśramas*.**Four*varṇas*means social divisions, and four*āśrama*, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division,*brahmacārī*,*gṛhastha*,*vānaprastha*, and*sannyāsa*, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there.*Brāhmaṇa.*Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or*kṣatriya*department.*yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam*[in battle not fleeing" from*Bg.*[[bg/18/43|18.43]]: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the*kṣatriyas*"]. The*kṣatriyas* are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him: > kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam asvargyam akīrti-karam arjuna [*Bg*[[bg/2/2|2.2]]: "My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the value of life. They lead not to higher planets but to infamy.] So everything is required.**It is not that everyone should become*brāhmaṇa*. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become*brāhmaṇa*.**It is not so easy thing. But a class of*brāhmaṇa*must be maintained. A class of*brāhmaṇa* must be there as ideal to consult with them. **Similarly, a class of*kṣatriya*must be there, a class of*vaiśya*must be there. This is called*varṇāśrama*. For the peaceful execution of material life, these things are required, division.**Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department.**You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there.**Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this*varṇāśrama*, revival of*varṇāśrama*is required. A class of men,*brāhmaṇa*: > śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg [[bg/18/42|18.42]]] [*Bg*18.42: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness—these are the natural qualities by which the*brāhmaṇas*work.]**As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught:**how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.*Āstikyam*. In this way,**as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of*brāhmaṇa*, a department of*kṣatriya*—that education must be given.**But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is*śūdra*. *Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ*. [In this Age of Kali, everyone is born a*śūdra*.]: > paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam [*Bg*[[bg/18/44|18.44]] "... for the*śūdras* there is labor and service to others.] Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service.*Paricarya***:**he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the*śāstra*it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore,*kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ*, in this age almost everyone is*śūdra*.**So if*śūdras*are there only, if there is no*brāhmaṇa*, no*kṣatriya*, no*vaiśyas*, that society will not prosper very much.**If we accept the injunction of the*śāstra*, > yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim [*Bg*[[bg/16/23|16.23]]: "He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.] So this*brāhmaṇa*, or*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. *Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. [From*Bg.*[[bg/4/13|4.13]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, {the four divisions of human society are created by Me...}"]*Guṇa*. One must acquire the quality of*brāhmaṇa*and he must act as a*brāhmaṇa*. Then he is*brāhmaṇa*.*Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. Even in*śūdra*family, if one is born*śūdra*, but he has attained the quality of a*brāhmaṇa*, he must be accepted as*brāhmaṇa*. That is the*śāstra* injunction: > yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyaṣjakam yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB [[sb/7/11/35 1976|7.11.35]]] [SB [[sb/7/11/35 1976|7.11.35]]: "If one shows the symptoms of being a *brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*or*śūdra*, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.]*Yad anyatra*. If the quality of*brāhmaṇa*is found in a person who is born in a*śūdra*family, he should be accepted as*brāhmaṇa*.**Similarly, if the...śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa.**I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority.*Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet*[SB [[sb/7/11/35 1976|7.11.35]]].**So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a*brāhmaṇa*family or*kṣatriya*family, he has got the facility to become quickly a*brāhmaṇa*; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as*brāhmaṇa*.**You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge,**it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge.** That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... **So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*especially.**And*vaiśyas*, they do not require any academical area.*Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam*. [*Bg*[[bg/18/44|18.44]]]: "Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the*vaiśyas*...] They can learn simply by associating with another*vaiśya*. But*brāhmaṇa*, especially require education, Vedic literature.*Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna- pratigrahaḥ*. [from SB [[sb/5/17/11 1975|5.17.11]] purport: "*Brāhmaṇas*are supposed to acquire six kinds of auspicious qualifications: they become very learned scholars (*paṭhana*) and very qualified teachers (*pāṭhana*); they become expert in worshiping the Lord or the demigods (*yajana*), and they teach others how to execute this worship (*yājana*); they qualify themselves as bona fide persons to receive alms from others (*pratigraha*), and they distribute the wealth in charity (*dāna*).]*Kṣatriya*also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training.**These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training.** But that is possible. So your answer... **Indian:** No, the institution for training this Swamiji? Your proposition? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas. **Indian:** In Hyderabad. **Prabhupāda:** Hare Kṛṣṇa. Brāhmaṇa Guidance for Kṣatriyas, Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Room Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh --- ## Brāhmaṇa Guidance for Kṣatriyas Hyderabad, August 22, 1976 Room Conversation With Endowments Commissioner Of Andhra Pradesh Temple means educational center... *Brāhmaṇas'*duty: to give guidance to the*kṣatriyas.* **Hari-śauri**: I've got it listed. (Reading:) 182. 1-8-2. All their temples should be reorganized on the... People should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. **Commissioner**: Educational center. **Prabhupāda**: Oh, yes.*Brāhmaṇas*means they are teachers.*Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ.*So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life.*Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-raṣjanam...* **Commissioner**: That's what I find, Swamiji. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the (indistinct) of temples, interest in temples... **Prabhupāda**: No, it can be... If government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. **Commissioner**: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and**Godāvarī**. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. **Prabhupāda**: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know then they cannot do anything. **Commissioner**: No, we want guidance. **Prabhupāda**: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the*brāhmaṇa's*position. The*brāhmaṇa's*duty is to give guidance to the*kṣatriya*. Government means*kṣatriya*. So if the*kṣatriyas*take guidance from the*brāhmaṇa* and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance provided you accept it. (laughter) Varṇāśrama is Not the Caste System, Chandigarh, October 16, 1976: Press Interview --- ## Varṇāśrama is Not the Caste System Chandigarh, October 16, 1976 - Press Interview HIGHLIGHTS: **We're not only chanting, we're giving them work...varṇāśrama is not the caste system:Gopāla Kṛṣṇa:** This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." **Prabhupāda:We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing.Gopāla Kṛṣṇa:** Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. **Prabhupāda:** America we have nine, eleven centers like that. **Gopāla Kṛṣṇa:** Farms. This is a review from a local, from O.P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. **Prabhupāda:**One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of*Navbharat Times*? **Interviewer:** Yes, he is here. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. So you published I think two years before, about our New Vrindaban. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that... We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. **Interviewer:** Which are those areas? **Prabhupāda:** West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans, and where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. **Interviewer:** So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating, people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? **Prabhupāda:** Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are... **Interviewer:** But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. **Prabhupāda:**Yes.**And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the*Bhagavad-gītā*,*kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam*.**[Bg [[bg/18/44|18.44]]]: "Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the*vaiśyas*...] That you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows.**That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved.*Annād bhavanti bhūtāni*.**[From*Bg*. [[bg/3/14|3.14]] :"All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of*yajña*{sacrifice}, and*yajña*is born of prescribed duties.] If you get sufficient food there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied. Animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the*Bhagavad-gītā*. **Interviewer:** Sir, in the modern technological... **Prabhupāda:** Modern, we are not talking of modern or... We're talking... **Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture.Prabhupāda:**So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present*Bhagavad-gītā*as it is. That is our mission.**That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question.**You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that**by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times food stuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that.**They are utilizing land... Just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up... They are not given anything to eat. There is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. **Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement.**The recommended process in the*Bhagavad-gītā*, that*annād bhavanti bhūtāni*[Bg [[bg/3/14|3.14]]]. If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the*vaiśya*class,*kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam; go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam*. [Bg [[bg/18/44|18.44]]]: "Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the*vaiśyas*...] According to*Bhagavad-gītā*, this is the business of the*vaiśyas*. The*brāhmaṇas*, they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The*kṣatriyas*, they should govern, give protection. The*vaiśyas*, they should produce enough food. And those who are neither*brāhmaṇa*nor*kṣatriya*-*śūdras*—they can help. That's all. This is their.... Then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. **Just like in your body you require brain, the head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly,*brāhmaṇa*,*kṣatriya*,*vaiśya*,*śūdra*.**That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be*brāhmaṇa*, there must be*śūdra*, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect. **Interviewer:Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system?Prabhupāda:**Huh?**It is not caste system. It is division of labor. It is not caste system**. A class of men must be intelligent, a class of men must be strong to give protection. And a class of men must be to produce food, and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system.*Bhagavad-gītā*never says "caste system":*Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. [Bg [[bg/4/13|4.13]]]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me...] According to quality and work.***You*have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a*brāhmaṇa*, you are [claiming], "I am*brāhmaṇa*." That is caste system.**But if you have got the quality of a*brāhmaṇa*and you work as a*brāhmaṇa*, that is necessary. That is necessary.*Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ*. Localized Economics, **India**, January 11, 1977: Conversation on Train to Allahabad