# 11 American Pragmatism ## William James [1842-1910] **Hayagrīva:** In his most famous book, *The Varieties of Religious Experience,* James writes: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God....The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker." **Prabhupāda:** There are varieties of living beings living everywhere from the water up to the higher planetary systems. In fact, *Padma Purāṇa* informs us that there are 8,400,000 species: plants, creepers, trees, insects, aquatics, birds, animals, and so forth. God is concerned with all of them, because they are all part and parcel of God. In one word, God is the Father and maintainer of all living entities. He has two subordinate energies—material and spiritual. In the material world, material nature is the mother, God is the Father, and the various living entities are all sons maintained by the Supreme Father. This is the basis of universal brotherhood. It is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā* [*sarva-yoniṣu,* Bg.* 14.4] that material nature is the mother and that Kṛṣṇa is the seed-giving father. If we understand these relationships, we will attain peace and advanced knowledge. **Hayagrīva:** Concerning the founding of religions, James writes: "The founders of every church owed their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the divine. Not only the superhuman founders, the Christ, the Buddha, Mohammed, but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case;—so personal religion should seem the primordial thing, even to those who continue to esteem it incomplete." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, the Supreme Father is a person. We have no experience of a father being anything but a person. Just as in the material world, all fathers are persons, the ultimate Father is also a person. The personal conception of God is there in every religion: Christian, Mohammedan, and Vedic. In the Vedic religion, it is stated, *o***ṁ** *tad *viṣṇoḥ* *paramaṁ *padam.* Those who are spiritually advanced know that the Supreme Father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa are the same. Impersonal realization is imperfect and incomplete, whereas Bhagāvan, the personal God, is the ultimate end of realization. Our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him. Then we can act accordingly to perfect our lives. This is the process of God realization. **Hayagrīva:** James considered religion to be the source of philosophy. He writes: "Since the relation [of man to God] may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow." **Prabhupāda:** Philosophy means advancing knowledge, and we are perfecting our knowledge when we begin our understanding of God. Due to foolishness, we sometimes deride God's existence. Sometimes we concoct some imaginary idea, and sometimes we have impersonal and pantheistic conceptions. Philosophy is the search for God, but due to our imperfection, we have different opinions and conceptions of Him. God is a person, and when we know God, talk with Him, see Him, feel His presence, and play with Him, we have attained the highest platform of God realization. We then come to realize that God is great and that we are small and always subordinate. Carrying out God's orders is religion, and the more we realize this, the more we perfect our religion. **Śyāmasundara:** James noted that there are two fundamental philosophical temperaments. One is called tender-mindedness, and this is typified by the rationalist, the idealist, the optimist, the religionist, and the dogmatist. Tough-mindedness is typified by the empiricist, the materialist, the pessimist, the atheist, the fatalist, and the skeptic. **Prabhupāda:** This depends upon our education, whether we become tender or tough-minded. In either case, we propose that originally the soul is good. Tenderness and toughness are developed later on. They are not the standard. When you come to the platform of the soul, everything is good. From *Bhagavad-gītā,* we understand that every living entity is part and parcel of God, and God is good. Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma *pavitraṁ* [*Bg.* 10.12]. The word *pavitra* means "pure." Because we are part of God, we are pure. Impurities are acquired due to contamination in this material world. We may be either tender or tough-minded: this is due to our impurity acquired in this material world. We don't credit a person either way, being tender or tough. A man suffering from a headache thinks that it is better to be suffering from indigestion instead, and vice versa. Because the pure soul is affected by the three *guṇas*—*sattva, rajas,* and *tamas*—he is suffering. He must be relieved from all suffering. From the material point of view, one may be a *brāhmaṇa* contaminated by *sattva-guṇa,* or a *śūdra* contaminated by *tamo-guṇa* or *rajo-guṇa,* but from the spiritual platform, both are contaminated by material nature. Because of this, both are suffering. It is explained in *Bhagavad-gītā* that the *brāhmaṇa* thinks, "Oh, I am so pure and learned. I am so this, I am so that." This is called contamination by *sattva-guṇa.* He is not thinking that he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. As long as we are affected by these material modes of nature, our position is the same. **Śyāmasundara:** James called himself a radical empiricist. He did not see the universe as a neat set of relationships because direct experience informs us that facts are mosaic and discontinuous in their design. Thus for him the universe is a composition of facts which do not form a perfect unity. **Prabhupāda:** Because he is seeing the universe with imperfect eyes, it appears imperfect. Actually, everything is complete. According to the first verse of *Īśopaniṣad:* > oṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idea > pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate > pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya > pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." [*Īśopaniṣad,* Invocation] God is perfect, and whatever is created by God is perfect. James thinks that it is imperfect because he cannot see it through the eyes of God. **Śyāmasundara:** For James, the ultimate unification of the universe is never fully attained. He writes: "The universe continually grows in quantity by new experiences that graft themselves upon the older mass; but these very new experiences often help the mass to a more consolidated form." **Prabhupāda:** This conception results from a poor fund of knowledge. The universe is complete, but man alone is not complete. Because the universe is created by a perfect being, it is also perfect. It is not that the universe is evolving. It has been perfect since its creation. Since our knowledge is imperfect, we think that it is evolving. **Śyāmasundara:** Is this because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Śyāmasundara:** Well, this is James's criterion for truth: that which I perceive is true. Truth is what one can experience. **Prabhupāda:** But what you can perceive may also be wrong because you are not perfect. You may think an imperfect thing perfect, or a perfect thing imperfect. In the *śāstras* it is stated that because human beings are controlled by the mode of passion, they love to work very hard, and thus they think that hard work is happiness. At the same time, the *śāstras* point out that hard work for sense gratification is also being carried on by hogs and dogs. Animals are also working hard for some remuneration, for food, or sense enjoyment. This is called māyā, illusion. **Śyāmasundara:** James felt that truth is more than just an agreement of idea with reality. It also has practical significance. What is practical is true. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, the truth must be practical. From the verses of Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, we can understand that one who receives but the slightest merciful glance of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu considers Brahmān and liberation to be hellish. *Kaivalyaṁ *narakāyate.* Such a person also considers the heavenly planets to be mere phantasmagoria, and the yoga*-siddhis,* the yoga potencies, to be unimportant. Materialists suffer in this material condition, but a devotee is always satisfied. Although others are full of anxiety, a devotee sees everything as pleasing. All of this is possible by a fragment of the merciful glance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is practical. As soon as we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, all this takes place. **Śyāmasundara:** For James, truth means experience. **Prabhupāda:** That is also our proposal. *Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa [*SB.* 11.2.42]. One who is advanced in *bhakti* is no longer interested in material enjoyment. Unless we come to detest material things, it is to be understood that we are not making progress. When a hungry man eats, he feels satisfied, and his body gains strength. Similarly, when we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we feel spiritually strong and lose our taste for material enjoyment. **Śyāmasundara:** James felt that truths can be created or developed in the same way as wealth or health. **Prabhupāda:** Health may be created, but truth cannot. It is not that truth is developing; rather, you are gradually progressing towards truth. It is not that the sun is developing, but as the clouds disappear, your ability to see the sun develops. The sun is fixed in its position. **Śyāmasundara:** Well, for James, truth is a system of verification. That is, ideas become true or are made true through our experience of them. **Prabhupāda:** No, as you make progress, truth is revealed. In *the *Bhagavad-gītā**, Kṛṣṇa says that as we surrender unto Him, He reveals Himself proportionately [*Bg.* 4.11]. **Śyāmasundara:** But if an idea works, and is applied to concrete facts of experience, we can accept it as a true idea. As our experiences develop, our life progresses. If an idea works in my experience, it becomes true for me. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is our process. In the beginning, it is through faith that we enter into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. In the beginning, we have no practical experience of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We may see that people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious appear to have very bright faces, and our interest may increase on seeing this. Thus we first come with a little faith and interest, and as we associate with the devotees, our interest increases. **Śyāmasundara:** So our experiences prove that the ideas are true. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, otherwise how can European and American boys be satisfied with so few material possessions? They are realizing in practice that a simple life is better than an artificial one. **Śyāmasundara:** But what is practical for one person may not be for another. What is the criterion? **Prabhupāda:** There are relative truths, and there is the Absolute Truth. Some people are interested in one, and some in the other. We may accept some temporary means to attain a goal; however, the ultimate goal is to please Kṛṣṇa, and for this end we may adopt some temporary, relative means. **Śyāmasundara:** According to James, one who believes has a greater chance to discover the truth than one who doubts. **Prabhupāda:** That is so. > ajñaś cāśraddadhānaś ca > saṁśayātmā vinaśyati > nāyaṁ loko 'sti na paro > na sukhaṁ saṁśayātmanaḥ "But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness; they fall down. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next." [*Bg.* 4.40] Those who are doubters are finished. Is James a believer or a doubter? **Śyāmasundara:** He was a believer, a New England Protestant. He says that one who disbelieves faces the risk of losing any chance of discovering the truth. **Prabhupāda:** That is so. This means that we accept the fact that God is truth and that He is existing. He believes that we have a better chance to get at the truth by believing in God, and God is truth; therefore God is existing. If you believe that you can become warm by getting next to fire, you are asserting the existence of fire. Unless there is a fire, how can there be warmth? So the belief itself is the proof. **Śyāmasundara:** For James, the mind must survive the body, since the mind is not dependent on the body for its existence. **Prabhupāda:** That is a fact. When the gross body is finished, the subtle body consisting of the mind, intelligence, and ego remains. These guide us to another gross body. They are like the aroma coming from a rose. We can see the rose, but we cannot see the aroma. Still, the aroma is being scattered by the air. Similarly, when the spirit soul gives up the gross body, it is carried by the mind, intelligence, and ego. According to our desire, that subtle body enters another gross body. **Śyāmasundara:** If the mind and intelligence are not material, do they not die? **Prabhupāda:** To die means to disappear. The mind disappears when you are liberated. **Śyāmasundara:** Then I carry my mind with me throughout all my lifetimes? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, as long as you are not liberated. **Śyāmasundara:** Is this the same mind I have now and have always had? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, but the body, which is material and gross, changes. The subtle material body— mind, intelligence, and false ego— accompanies us until we are liberated. **Hayagrīva:** Concerning nondevotional religions, James gives the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism: "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious, and yet do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God; but in strictness the Buddhistic system is atheistic." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, and that is also the description given in *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.* Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people were atheistic and accustomed to killing many animals in sacrificial offerings. Lord Buddha was very much aggrieved to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily; therefore he preached a religion of nonviolence. Because the people were atheists, Lord Buddha, in order to bring them under his control, agreed with them and said, "Yes, there is no God, but listen to me." This is a kind of transcendental cheating. In the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God Himself. In this way, people accepted his words and instructions. Animal killers cannot understand God and religion, although they may have some vague idea. Lord Buddha wanted to stop their sinful activities and reestablish a system of religion dedicated to nonviolence. Therefore he rejected the Vedas*, which allow restricted animal sacrifice. **Hayagrīva:** For James, religion means surrender and total involvement. He writes: "In the religious life....surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary....It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our life can so successfully fulfill." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, society without religion is animalistic. We have already defined religion as understanding, loving, and obeying God. These principles are personally taught by God Himself in *Bhagavad-gītā:* > man-manā bhava mad-bhakto > mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru > mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te > pratijāne priyo 'si me **"Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." [*Bg.* 18.65] We may think of God either as a personal God or a localized or all-pervading God, but in any case, God has form. It is easier to think of the form of the Lord. Attempting to meditate on the impersonal aspect is very troublesome [*Bg.* 12.5]. Although Kṛṣṇa has different incarnations and forms, He is the Supreme; therefore we meditate upon Him. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we can think of Kṛṣṇa easily because His form, the Deity, is in the temple. We also have the perfect instructions of Bhagavad-gītā.* God gives perfect instructions in everything:** religion, politics, sociology, philosophy, science, physics, and history. Those who are fortunate will see the actual form of God according to His instructions, and perfect their lives. This is what is wanted. **Hayagrīva:** James sees happiness as an integral part of religion. **Prabhupāda:** When you know and follow God, you become happy. > brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā > na śocati na kāṅkṣati > samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu > mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām "One who is transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." [*Bg.* 18.54] As soon as we are God realized, we transcend duality and all distress, and become immediately happy. There is no longer hankering and lamentation. We no longer distinguish between men and nations. We see everyone within the material world—whether man, animal, or a tree—as a living entity, a part and parcel of God. In this way, we have a clear understanding and a perfect life. **Hayagrīva:** In *The Varieties of Religious Experience,* James further writes: "If a creed makes a man feel happy, he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true—such rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, if you have a clear conception of God, and have decided to obey Him and love Him, you will be happy. This is the process utilized by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have no other business than obeying the orders of God. God has told us to preach this confidential philosophy of *Bhagavad-gītā* everywhere. Since we are trying to love God and obey His orders, we are eager to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise, it is Kṛṣṇa's business. Why should we bother about Him? We are attempting to spread this movement because we love Kṛṣṇa, and He is happy that His message is being spread throughout the world. That is our happiness also. Since we are serving God without a doubt, we also feel happiness. This is reciprocation with God. This is religion. Religion is not sentiment, but actual realization of God, the actual carrying out of His orders. Our progressive life is secure if we are happy when God is happy. **Hayagrīva:** James sees the lover of God as being a morally free person. He writes: "St. Augustine's maxim, 'If you but love God, you may do as you incline—' is morally one of the profoundest of observations, yet it is pregnant, for such persons, with passports beyond the bounds of conventional morality." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is very nicely put. If God is satisfied with our action, our action is moral. Conventional morality, which says, "This is good, and this is bad," is a mental concoction. Morality refers to the activities which satisfy God. If our action dissatisfies God, it is immoral. We therefore sing every day, *yasya prasādād *bhagavat-prasādo* [*Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka* 8]. The orders of God are carried out by the representative of God, the spiritual master. When we have no direct connection with God, the spiritual master serves as a transparent intermediary between God and ourselves. In the perfectional stage, of course, we can talk with God directly, but in the beginning, the neophyte must receive instructions from the spiritual master who is directly connected with God. If we satisfy the spiritual master, we have satisfied God, and this is our happiness. **Hayagrīva:** Concerning evil, James writes: "Evil is a disease; and worry over disease is itself an additional form of disease, which only adds to the original complaint....The best repentence is to up and act for righteousness, and forget that you ever had relations with sin." **Prabhupāda:** When you are in a diseased condition, your suffering increases. When no one attempts to extinguish a fire, it increases. Debts unpaid will compound interests. Therefore diseases, fire, and debts should not be left unattended. They should be completely extinguished. We must know that our suffering is due to our disobedience to the orders of God, to our being irreligious. We have a relationship with God, but because we are now covered by material contamination, we are ignorant of it. We are thinking of ourselves as independent, and that is our foolishness. The demoniac and atheistic incorrectly think themselves independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept what they do not want: the punishments of birth, old age, disease, and death. Despite this punishment, the atheists still deny God's existence. God is there, and His orders are there. We should accept the instructions of a bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and execute them. Then we become happy and overcome the results of evil. **Śyāmasundara:** Like Mill and others, James felt that due to the existence of evil in the universe, God is not unlimited. **Prabhupāda:** He did not know that evil does not exist independent of God. According to the *śāstras,* evil is the back side of God. Back side or front side, God is God. God is absolute. It is not that I can neglect or deny my back. I cannot say, "Beat me on my back side." The back is as important as the front. Those who are sinful cannot stand the front of God. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: > yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ > janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām > te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā > bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination." [*Bg.* 7.28] Unless we are completely uncontaminated, we cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Once we surrender unto Kṛṣṇa and accept His orders, Kṛṣṇa immediately relieves us from all sinful reactions. **Śyāmasundara:** James defines the world as the "stuff of pure experience," and says that experience is sometimes manifest as mind, and sometimes as matter. **Prabhupāda:** It is made up of experience, but whose experience? It is not due to your experience that these flowers are here. You have not created these flowers. He speaks of pure experience, but he does not know that it is Kṛṣṇa's experience. > na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate > na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate > parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate > svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca "He does not possess bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity. There is no difference between His body and His soul. He is absolute. All His senses are transcendental. Any one of His senses can perform the action of any other sense. Therefore, no one is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence." [*Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad* 6.8] According to the Vedas,* the Supreme is equipped with different kinds of energies, and those energies can be experienced. This universe and everything within the cosmic manifestation is designed by the Supreme. Everything is a result of His multi-energies. In order for a man to create a flower on canvas, he must be thoroughly experienced in his art, but we can see that the multi-energies of Kṛṣṇa are working so nicely that flowers appear automatically. **Hayagrīva:** James divides religion into two basic types. One he calls the "sky-blue optimistic gospel," and the other "pessimistic" in its recognition of the futility and miseries of materialistic life. He felt that the completest religions take a pessimistic view of material existence, and offer liberation from it. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, only an animal is not pessimistic about life in this material world. A man is capable of knowing the threefold sufferings of material life. There are sufferings of the mind and body, sufferings offered by other living entities, and sufferings forced upon us by natural catastrophes and the laws of nature. The world is full of suffering, but under the spell of māyā, illusion, we think we are progressing. Ultimately, whatever we do, death is there to annihilate the results. Under these circumstances, there is no happiness within this material world. We may make all arrangements for happiness, but at any moment, death may capture us. So what happiness can we have here? Therefore an intelligent man is always pessimistic about material life. He knows that he will not be allowed to be happy here. As we further advance, we understand the orders of Kṛṣṇa: *sarva-dharmān *parityajya* *m**ām *ekam* *śaraṇaṁ *vraja.* "Abandon all religions and just surrender unto Me." [*Bg.* 18.66] We must surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and after surrendering and understanding Him fully, we can go to the world that is full of bliss, knowledge, and eternal life. Unless we take a pessimistic view of this material world, we will remain attached to it, and the repetition of birth and death will ensue. In this world, everyone is attempting to live permanently, but nature does not allow this. People work very hard, and sometimes get good results, bad results, or frustration. So where is happiness? Happiness is understanding God, acting according to His advice, and returning home, back to Godhead. **Hayagrīva:** James believes that there is a certain composite picture of universal saintliness, which is the same in all religions, and of which the features can be easily traced. He has noted that holymen possess: "One, a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest; and a conviction...of the existence of an Ideal Power." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that feeling is there because the greatness of God is experienced. God is great in six opulences: wealth, strength, fame, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. **Hayagrīva:** Secondly, holymen possess "a sense of the friendly continuity of the Ideal Power with our own life, in a willing self-surrender to its control." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, there is a friendly continuity. There are five basic relationships. In the first, the relationship is between master and servant, then friend to friend, son to father, father to son, and beloved to beloved. All of these are friendly relationships, and every living entity has a natural instinct to accept any one of them. Thus our friendly relationships with God can be chosen. Someone may like to relate to Him as a servant, a friend, a father, a son, or a conjugal lover. When we are free from material contamination, our particular relationship is revived, and we understand ourselves as eternal parts and parcels of God. **Hayagrīva:** Thirdly, the holyman experiences "an immense elation and freedom, as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, material selfishness is māyā. Those who are enchanted by the spell of māyā do not know that their real self-interest is in knowing their relationship with God. Our first duty is to have a complete idea of God and our relationship with Him. According to the Vedic process, whether we take up the *haṭha-*yoga, *jñāna-yoga,* or *bhakti-yoga* system, the purpose is realization of God. A perfect human being knows that God is supplying his necessities and that he need not try to improve his economic condition. A *sādhu,* or holyman, is not interested in improving his material condition, but his spiritual condition. **Hayagrīva:** Lastly, James speaks of the holyman experiencing "a shifting of the emotional center toward loving and harmonious affections, toward 'yes' and away from 'no' where the claims of the non-ego are concerned." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, God is always asking us to obey His orders, and as soon as we do so, as soon as we agree with Him, we become liberated. *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* describes liberation as giving up everything except devotional life. > nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve > na kutaścana bibhyati > svargāpavarga-narakeṣv > api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ "Devotees solely engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, never fear any condition of life. For them, the heavenly planets, liberation, and the hellish planets are all the same, because such devotees are interested only in the service of the Lord." [*SB.* 6.17.28] Life is meant for rendering devotional service to the Lord, and as soon as we understand this and commit ourselves to the rendering of such service, we are liberated. That is called *mukti.* **Hayagrīva:** James believes that the existence of many religions in the world is not regrettable because different types of men necessitate different types of religion. "Some may really be the better for a religion of consolation and reassurance," he writes, "whilst others are better for one of terror and reproof " **Prabhupāda:** I have said that religion means accepting God as the Supreme Father, material nature as the mother, and all living entities as sons of God. The father is the maintainer, and all his sons have the right to live at his expense. Every living being should be satisfied with his condition, which is given by God. No one should encroach upon the rights of others, including the rights of animals to live peacefully. According to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, a happy life means living in the family of Kṛṣṇa without violating the rules and regulations. In a family, the sons can live very happily by obeying their father. So there may be many types of religion, but awareness of this basic relationship with God and His creation should be there. **Hayagrīva:** Since James was acquainted only with the impersonalist Vedānta school of Hinduism, he wrote of *samādhi* instead of devotional service. "When a man comes out of samādhi*" he writes, "...he remains 'enlightened, a sage, a prophet, a saint, his whole character changed, his life changed, illumined."' **Prabhupāda:** *Samādhi* means ecstasy, and if we are in God consciousness, we are in *samādhi.* In *the *Bhagavad-gītā**, Kṛṣṇa speaks of the yogī in *samādhi:* > yoginām api sarveṣāṁ > mad-gatenāntarātmanā > śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ > sa me yuktatamo mataḥ "And of all yogīs, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me—he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion. " [*Bg.* 6.47] In *samādhi,* the mind is always absorbed in God. If we continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in *samādhi.* **Hayagrīva:** James describes *samādhi* to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. **Hayagrīva:** And he therefore concludes that "Mystical states cannot be sustained for long. Except in rare instances, half an hour, or at most an hour or two, seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. Often, when faded, their quality can but imperfectly be reproduced in memory; but when they recur, it is recognized; and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that richness is perfected when we think of Kṛṣṇa constantly. That is recommended in the Sixth Chapter of *Bhagavad-gītā,* which I quoted previously. Consequently, in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are devoted to thinking of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours daily. When we do not fall down from the yoga principle, we experience *samādhi.* **Hayagrīva:** James himself claims to have experienced such a state momentarily, under the influence of ether. And today, people claim to induce mystical states through psychedelic drugs. **Prabhupāda:** These are artificial means, and they cannot be sustained. It is better to engage in the bona fide devotional process—*śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥsmaraṇaṁ *pāda-sevanam* [*SB.* 7.5.23]—always hearing about Kṛṣṇa, talking about Him, remembering Him, serving Him in the temple, distributing His literatures, and so on. There are many services we can render in order to be fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Hayagrīva:** After analyzing many different religious experiences, James arrives at five basic conclusions. One: "That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, the material universe is existing on the spiritual effulgence of the Lord, just as all the planets are resting upon the sunshine. Everything rests on the spiritual effulgence of the Lord, but when we forget the Lord, we call this the material world. Actually, the material world is in the spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. When we revive our dormant God consciousness, the material world no longer exists. For a person truly advanced in God consciousness, there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual. **Hayagrīva:** You are anticipating James's second conclusion, which is: "Union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is so. When we no longer forget our eternal relationship with God, nothing is material. **Hayagrīva:** Third, prayer, or communion with God, "is a process wherein work is really done, and spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, within the phenomenal world." And, fourth, religion produces "a new zest which adds itself like a gift to life." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, realizing God's creation with awe, veneration, and appreciation constitutes one type of relationship called *śānta-rasa.* From there, we can progress to the point of *dāsya-rasa,* which involves serving God, and finally to the *mādhurya-rasa,* which includes accepting God as our most beloved object. The devotee may choose whichever relationship he likes; the result is the same. However, by comparative study, the *sādhus* have decided that the *mādhurya-rasa,* our relationship with God as lover and beloved, is the highest relationship. **Hayagrīva:** Finally, religion produces "an assurance of safety and a temper of peace, and, in relation to others, a preponderance of loving affections." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is very nice. A devotee is always at peace because he is always confident that since he is sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will save him from all danger. Prahlāda Mahārāja was always peaceful, although his demoniac father, Hiraṇyakaśipu, attempted to kill him in so many ways. God always protects His devotee, and therefore the pure devotee is not disturbed by any material condition. He has firm faith in God, and this is called surrender. Full surrender means accepting everything favorable to God consciousness and rejecting everything unfavorable. When we enter the family of God, we have firm faith and security under the protection of God. **Hayagrīva:** James then concludes that "in opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that fulfillment is what is wanted. God demands that we fully surrender unto Him, and when we do so, our lives are perfected. ## John Dewey [1859-1952] **Hayagrīva:** Dewey believed that religions are basically myths and that experience is of the utmost necessity. He considered philosophy superior to religion. "The form [in philosophy] ceases to be that of the story told in imaginative and emotional style," he writes, "and becomes that of rational discourse observing the canons of logic." For him, the Vedic accounts of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes would be purely mythical. **Prabhupāda:** Kṛṣṇa is a historical fact; He is not imaginary. The *Mahābhārata* is accepted by all Indian authorities, especially by the *ācāryas* who control the spiritual life of India. They do not, however, accept Mr. Dewey's imaginative thinking. **Hayagrīva:** When science began to investigate the phenomenal universe without admitting the proprietorship of God, a breakdown in morality and value ensued. Dewey tried to reassemble these shattered values in a philosophical way, but he, like science, attempted to do so without acknowledging the proprietorship of a Supreme Being. **Prabhupāda:** That is simply a form of lunacy because everything has a proprietor. Why should this great cosmic manifestation not have a proprietor? It is natural and logical to accept a proprietor. Who would think that an organized nation has no government? How can a logical man come to such conclusions? **Hayagrīva:** He felt that science dealt a death blow to the orthodox, historical religions as we know them. **Prabhupāda:** As I have repeatedly explained, religion means accepting the laws of God. The whole cosmic manifestation has a date of creation and is therefore historical. Anything material that has a beginning has a history, but long before this cosmic manifestation was created, religion existed. We are tiny people and know the small history of this world, which extends for some thousands of years, but the history of Brahmā is far different. That history covers billions and billions of earth years. At the same time, our history is different from an ant's history. So, historically speaking, everything is relative according to the living entity computing or experiencing the history. Most people have no information of greater personalities, which we call the demigods, but Vedic literatures inform us that in the higher planetary systems, the standard of life is different and the duration longer. Unless one has thorough knowledge of the entire universe, religions may seem imaginary, but what is imaginary to one may be factual to another. For an ant, the history of man is imaginary. Unfortunately, scientists and philosophers on this planet are thinking in their own terms and taking everything they think to be factual. On the other hand, whatever they cannot conceive, they consider mythological. **Hayagrīva:** Writing in the early part of this century, Dewey felt that it was high time to set aside all superstitious religions. According to him, logic "demands that in imagination we wipe the slate clean and start afresh by asking what would be the idea of the unseen...." In other words, we must define God and religion anew. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is required. *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam* rejects all religions considered to be "cheating religions," because they do not contain perfect knowledge. > dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ > vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam > śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ > sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥśuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt "Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this *Bhāgavata Purāṇa* propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam,* compiled by the great sage Śrī Vyāsadeva, is sufficient in itself for God realization. As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of *Bhāgavatam,* he becomes attached to the Supreme Lord." [*SB.* 1.1.2] **The sum and substance of the *Bhāgavata* religion is the acceptance of God as supreme controller. Janmādy *asya* *yato 'nvayād* *itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ *svarāṭ* [*SB.* 1.1.1]. That is the principle:** Brahman is He from whom everything emanates. Unless we know the ultimate source of emanation, our knowledge is imperfect. Our experience tells us that everything has a source of emanation. Similarly, this entire creation has a history and a source from which it has emanated. Just because we are unable to reach that source, we should not think that it is imaginary. There is no question of starting a new religion because religion is always there. Someone must be the supreme controller, and that someone is called God. Dewey may ask, "Well, what is your experience?" We experience inert matter without consciousness, and we experience consciousness. We cannot go beyond this. Above these, there is one controller, a third element, which is the Absolute Truth, the controller of all visible animate and inanimate objects. Why is it difficult to understand this? **Hayagrīva:** In *A Common Faith,* Dewey writes: "What I have been criticizing is the identification of the ideal with a particular Being, especially when that identification makes necessary the conclusion that this Being is outside of nature, and what I have tried to show is that the ideal itself has its roots in natural conditions " **Prabhupāda:** God does not arise out of nature. God is the supreme controller in charge of nature. How can anyone think that this great phenomenon which we call nature has no controller? How can anyone think that everything is happening automatically? **Hayagrīva:** Dewey sees God emerging out of man's striving for perfection. **Prabhupāda:** God is already there, and man's perfection depends on his ability to understand God. It is not that a perfect man can create God through his imagination. Anything created by man is controlled, but God is the supreme controller. If man dies under the control of the Supreme, how can he be said to create or control the Supreme? If he cannot control what is already imposed by God—birth, old age, disease, and death—how can he imagine or create God? First, one should become independent of the laws of God before thinking of creating God. **Hayagrīva:** It appears that Dewey wants to use the word "God" to serve his own ends: promoting his philosophic conception of "the working union of the ideal and actual." He writes: "Use of the words God or divine to convey the union of actual with ideal may protect man from a sense of isolation and from consequent despair or defiance." **Prabhupāda:** Of course, one may define God, but one must be a *muni,* a very learned man, to define Him properly. For instance, one may say, "God is there," or, "God is great." We can go on from there to define His greatness. This greatness includes ultimate greatness in six opulences: power, wealth, knowledge, fame, beauty, and renunciation. Only God possesses these opulences in complete fullness. When Kṛṣṇa was present on this planet, He proved that He was the strongest, the most influential, the most beautiful and pure, and the most supremely wise. Kṛṣṇa's teachings, Bhagavad-gītā*, are still being studied all over the world. Great *ācāryas* like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbarka, Śaṅkarācārya, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu have all accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. There is complete agreement among the authorities that Kṛṣṇa is God. There is no question of mythology. Kṛṣṇa's lifting of Govardhana Hill is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,* and when speculators read it, they consider it to be mythological. But, really, is it difficult for God to lift a hill? If He is all powerful, what is the difficulty? When God comes and shows His godly powers, we should not consider it mythical. **Hayagrīva:** Unlike Marx and Comte, Dewey rejects humanity as an object of worship. He writes: "Nature produces whatever gives reinforcement and direction but also what occasions discord and confusion. The divine is thus a term of human choice and aspiration." **Prabhupāda:** There is no question of human choice. Can you say that death is your choice? Obviously there is force, and where is that force coming from? No one wants to die, but everyone dies. No one wants to grow old, but everyone grows old. We must understand the origin of this enforcement. The supreme authority, the supreme force, is God. You may call this God "nature," or whatever, but you must admit that there is something supreme controlling you. How can we philosophize and imagine that man can become God? **Hayagrīva:** Dewey writes that "a humanistic religion, if it excludes our relationship to nature, is pale and thin, as it is presumptuous, when it takes humanity as an object of worship." **Prabhupāda:** For a God conscious person, everything is worshipable, even an ant. But the supremely worshipable is God: *īśvaraḥ *paramaḥ* *kṛṣṇaḥ.* Some people think that nature is the supreme, but those who are aware of God know that God is the controller of nature also. Mayādhyakṣeṇa *prakṛtiḥ* *sūyate *sa-carācaram,* "This material nature is working under My direction, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings." [*Bg.* 9.10] Nature is only matter, and matter cannot act independently. Matter is being handled and controlled by a living being, who is the superior nature. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva *ca* [*Bg.* 7.4]. Earth, water, air, fire, and so forth constitute inferior nature. Above and beyond this is the superior nature. The living entities are finite controllers, but above them is another controller, the supreme controller who is God. It is very easy to understand. There are two natures: an active and an inactive nature. Above both of these natures is an active personality who is controlling both. **Śyāmasundara:** As far as his methodology is concerned, Dewey believed that practical consequences are the only valid test of truth. He claimed that the proof of an idea consists in its being subject to predictable results. **Prabhupāda:** If an idea is concocted, its results cannot be ascertained. If it is factual, the results can be predicted. **Śyāmasundara:** For Dewey, the object of inquiry is belief itself. Because we want something to believe in, we ask questions. This is the nature of inquiry. **Prabhupāda:** The *Vedānta-sūtra* advises us to find out the ultimate cause of everything, to inquire into the Absolute Truth. But inquiries should be directed to a person who knows. Otherwise, what is the use in inquiring? The Vedas* advise us to approach a bona fide spiritual master, a guru, if we want to find the truth. Unfortunately, at the present moment, there are many pseud gurus; therefore we have to add this word "bona fide." Otherwise, the word guru means bona fide, because one who is not bona fide cannot be a guru. Now, when we speak of inquiry, we mean learning the truth. Therefore we should inquire from one who knows the truth, otherwise our inquiry has no validity. *Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena *sevayā.* "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him." [*Bg.* 4.34] This is the Vedic injunction. The inquiry should be genuine, and the answer should come from a genuine person. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey believes that the final outcome of inquiry is the fulfillment of human needs. By practical action, we can change the external environment. **Prabhupāda:** Unless a human being inquires about the Absolute Truth, he is not considered sufficiently developed in his human form. For the consciousness to be developed, one must inquire about the self, asking, "What am I?" If this question is not asked, he is still in ignorance. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey felt that by inquiry, we can determine what is wrong with our environment, act to change it, and fulfill human needs. **Prabhupāda:** If a person is serious, inquiry will clear up everything. If he inquires about the aim of human life, he is intelligent. It is not possible for animals to ask these questions. Animals are only eating, sleeping, defending, and mating. **Śyāmasundara:** But should the aim of our inquiry be to change our external environment? **Prabhupāda:** If you are seriously inquiring, and if you know things as they are, you will change your activities. We are preaching that it is our business to know Kṛṣṇa. If people take this movement seriously, their entire mode of living will be changed. This is happening now. Previously, our students were leading a certain undesirable type of life, and since they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their entire lives have been changed. **Śyāmasundara:** Then, setting aside trying to improve the environment, we should first try to change our consciousness? **Prabhupāda:** It is the consciousness that needs to be changed, either by hearing from authority, or by circumstances. There are two processes by which knowledge can be attained—by hearing, and by direct experience. An intelligent person can understand by hearing. He knows that if he acts in a such a way, he will fall into danger. So he learns by listening to authorities. A less intelligent man has to experience an awkward or dangerous position in order to change his consciousness. For him, hearing is not sufficient. Of the two processes, learning by hearing is better. It is therefore our process to approach the bona fide teacher and learn from him. That is the process of *brahmacarya.* It is not that we have to learn by practical experience. The experience is already there. We only have to hear of it and accept it; then it becomes easier. We should not say, "Let me fall into the ditch, then I shall cry." Better we take good advice and avoid the ditch altogether. **Hayagrīva:** In the realm of philosophy and religion, Dewey believes that certainty is impossible. He writes: "Any philosophy that in its quest for certainty ignores the reality of the uncertain in the ongoing processes of nature, denies the conditions out of which it arises." **Prabhupāda:** There is uncertainty when you do not accept the reality. The reality is God, and God explains how nature is working. If we do not accept His explanation, our position is very precarious, very uncertain. But if God comes and reveals Himself and His activities, and we consider them mythological, how can we be convinced? How can we ever be certain? **Hayagrīva:** For Dewey, there is but one sure road of access to truth: what he calls "the road of patient, cooperative inquiry operating by means of observation, experiment, record, and controlled reflection." **Prabhupāda:** The record is there in the *Mahābhārata,* and those who have seen have confirmed it. Vyāsadeva, Nārada, and Arjuna all confirm that everything is there in the record, but if people do not believe, how can they be convinced? Conditioned living entities do not have the perfect senses to see, and if they remain unconvinced, they will always live in darkness. They may go on imagining in the dark, but they will never attain perfect knowledge in this way. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey set down five steps for solving problems and attaining truths: we observe a problem and consider its nature; we intellectualize and analyze it; we hypothesize and consider solutions; we analyze our hypothesis according to past experience, and choose possible solutions; and we put the solutions into practice. **Prabhupāda:** Our process for solving problems is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, *kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ *praṇaśyati.* "O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." [*Bg.* 9.31] When we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, our problems are solved. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ *kṛṣṇaḥ* [*Bg.* 18.78]. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all mystic power. He is *yogeśvaraḥ.* It is not the *bhakta's* business to strive to become a yogī; rather, he takes shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is *yogeśvaraḥ,* the master of all mystic power. We consider this to be the solution to all our problems. > daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī > mama māyā duratyayā > mām eva ye prapadyante > māyām etāṁ taranti te "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." [*Bg.* 7.14] There are various methods for solving problems, but the best method is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Then all problems are solved. **Śyāmasundara:** On the social platform as well? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. Everything is solved. For instance, the Pāṇḍavas had a political problem, and when they took shelter of Kṛṣṇa, their political and social problems were solved. **Śyāmasundara:** For Dewey, truth must satisfy human needs and improve social conditions. He sees truth as a practical tool. **Prabhupāda:** We are the ones who have created social problems. Kṛṣṇa is perfect, andwhatever Kṛṣṇa has created is perfect. *Oṁ *pūrṇam* *adaḥ pūrṇam *idaṁ* [*Īśopaniṣad,* Invocation]. Things appear to be imperfect because we disobey Kṛṣṇa's orders. If we remain faithful to Kṛṣṇa, there are no problems. People speak of truth, but unfortunately, they do not know the truth. > na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ > durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ > andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās > te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ "Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṇu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries." [*SB.* 7.5.31] The ultimate truth, the ultimate objective, is Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, people are trying to solve the problems of this world without referring to Viṣṇu. Of course, this is not possible. **Śyāmasundara:** How does worship of Viṣṇu solve social problems? **Prabhupāda:** Man who executes this *varṇāśrama-dharma* satisfies Viṣṇu. The *brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas,* and *śūdras* have various prescribed duties. If they follow them, all problems are solved. Unfortunately, in India this *varṇāśrama-dharma* has been killed. Now everyone is a *śūdrā.* The word *śūdra* refers to an unintelligent person. Since everyone is unintelligent, how can they solve problems? What can they do? They are trying to run a democratic government according to the votes of *śūdrās,* but *śūdrās* cannot solve anything. Once, America belonged to the red Indians, but they did not develop it. Why couldn't they improve their condition? The land and everything else was there. But when the Europeans came, they developed the land. *Śūdras* cannot actualize anything. If we once again establish the *varṇāśrama-dharma,* all problems will be solved. That was the plan of my Guru Mahārāja. *Daiva-varṇāśrama* refers to that which is stated by Kṛṣṇa. The *varṇas* are not established by birth, but by qualification. By qualification, one is a *brāhmaṇa* or a *śūdra.* By following the course prescribed for our *varṇa,* we can satisfy Lord Viṣṇu and in this way be happy. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey writes: "The good man is the man who no matter how morally worthy he has been, is moving to become better. Growth itself is the only moral end." **Prabhupāda:** In the beginning, a devotee may still do something wrong, but because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is accepted as a *sādhu.* > api cet sudurācāro > bhajate mām ananya-bhāk > sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ > samyag vyavasito hi saḥ "Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination." [*Bg.* 9.30] There may be many discrepancies in one's life, but if one's heart is in the right place, if he is working for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is considered a *sādhu,* even though he has not corrected his bad habits. *Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā***śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati**. "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace." [*Bg.* 9.31] Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his bad habits will be rectified very soon. **Śyāmasundara:** In other words, he is striving to improve his moral condition? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. If one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his morality will gradually develop. > yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā > sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ **"All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge, and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva." [*SB.* 5.18.12] All good qualities will automatically come. We should stick to the four regulative principles:** avoiding illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, and gambling. And we should chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa *mahā-mantra.* By abiding by the orders of the spiritual master, everything will automatically develop. All good moral qualities will follow. It is not that we have to develop these qualities separately or independently. All good qualities are already there in the spirit soul, but presently they are covered by material contamination. When we are purified by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all these original qualities emerge. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir *ucyate* [*Bhakti-rasāmṛta *sindhu* 1.1.12]. We should purify our senses by engaging them in the service of the master of the senses, Kṛṣṇa. That is the process of *bhakti.* **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey did not believe in absolute good or evil; each situation must be treated individually. **Prabhupāda:** Whatever is done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good, and whatever is done for something other than Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is useless, although it may be ethically correct. **Śyāmasundara:** He felt that the greatest good is the elimination of the greatest evil. It is the fulfillment of man's greatest needs. **Prabhupāda:** The highest objective is Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. By becoming a Vaiṣṇava, we attain the highest perfection of human life. The greatest need is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, pure, supreme consciousness. Every living entity is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. *Mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ *sanātanaḥ.* "The living entities in this conditioned world are my eternal fragmental parts." [*Bg.* 15.7] Therefore we must always remember that, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, it is our duty to serve Kṛṣṇa. In perverted consciousness, we think, "I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God." That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey believed that we should not choose good or evil simply on the basis of some theory. We should choose in order to alleviate specific evils. **Prabhupāda:** The *virāṭ-rūpa,* the universal form of the Lord, was manifest before Arjuna. Arjuna then saw that everything within the universe is part and parcel of that *virāṭ-rūpa,* within which everything has a function, a duty. When we work according to that function, problems are automatically solved. **Śyāmasundara:** For Dewey, we can never attain absolute certainty or perfection. We can only attain higher levels of moral progress. **Prabhupāda:** This means that he has no knowledge of absolute perfection. **Śyāmasundara:** The world can be made better by man's efforts, but perfection in the world is not possible. **Prabhupāda:** That is a different thing. This world is so made that if you perfect it today, tomorrow it will deteriorate. Therefore in one sense you cannot make it perfect. But you can improve it. > paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ > vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām > dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya > sambhavāmi yuge yuge "To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium." [*Bg.* 4.8] Any bad condition can be improved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness are the same. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are living with Kṛṣṇa, and if you are living with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear? On the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna was fearless because Kṛṣṇa was beside him. > samāśritā ye padapallava-plavaṁ > mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ > bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ adaṁ > padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām "For one who has accepted the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord, who is the shelter of the cosmic manifestation and is famous as Mukunda, the giver of liberation, the ocean of the material world is like the water contained in a calf’s hoofprint. Vaikuṇṭha is his goal, not the place where there is danger at every step." [*SB.* 10.14.58] In this material world, there is danger at every step, but as soon as we understand Kṛṣṇa, we become eligible to be transferred to the spiritual world. > janma karma ca me divyam > evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ > tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma > naiti mām eti so 'rjuna "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." [*Bg.* 4.9] **Śyāmasundara:** So people are removed from all danger, or evil, by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? **Prabhupāda:** Certainly. Therefore this is the best welfare activity for the entire world. By other means, people may be able to give some temporary benefit or temporary relief, but the situation will again deteriorate. You may give charity to a needy man, and this charity will serve him for a temporary period, but if you give him Kṛṣṇa *premā* he is immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu is called the most munificent incarnation because He has delivered Kṛṣṇa *premā* to the world. *Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe *namaḥ.* **Śyāmasundara:** But the goal of the utilitarians is to achieve what the people desire and require. **Prabhupāda:** The people desire and require happiness, but they are searching for it in temporary things. > ṛṣabha uvāca > nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke > kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye > tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ > śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam **"Lord Rsabhadeva told His sons:** My dear boys, of all the living entities who have accepted material bodies in this world, one who has been awarded this human form should not work hard day and night simply for sense gratification, which is available even for dogs and hogs that eat stool. One should engage in penance and austerity to attain the divine position of devotional service. By such activity, one's heart is purified, and when one attains this position, he attains eternal, blissful life, which is transcendental to material happiness, and which continues forever." [*SB.* 5.5.1] Purify your existence, and you will attain eternal happiness and bliss. Everyone is working hard for happiness, but how can happiness be attained in a diseased condition? First the disease must be cured because it is an impediment to happiness. The real disease is *janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi* [*Bg.* 13.9]: birth, old age, disease, and death. Cure these, and you will attain real happiness. Whatever you may desire, the ultimate end is happiness. Unfortunately, a diseased person is thinking, "I am happy." This is false happiness. Although you are dying, you are thinking that you are happy. This is called a fool's paradise. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey felt that the desirable course of action should meet certain conditions subject to prediction, and should be based on judgments or appraisals that might serve as guidelines to future activity. **Prabhupāda:** This is predictable: You say, "I don't want to die." I say, "Come to this position, and you will not die." **Śyāmasundara:** Is there some experience that would show this to be a predictable result? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. You might not have the experience, but your superiors do. > ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ > punar āvartino 'rjuna > mām upetya tu kaunteya > punar janma na vidyate "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again." [*Bg.* 8.16] If we go to Kṛṣṇa, we will never come back to this material world again. Who can excel Kṛṣṇa's experience? Since He knows past, present, and future, it is to our good to accept His instructions. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey would recommend basing our judgments on personal experience. **Prabhupāda:** We may not have personal experience, but we can take the advice of a person who does. Such experience is as good as our own. You may not have gone to New York, but because others have purchased tickets there and gone and returned, you can take advantage of their experience and learn something about that place. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey claims that value exists only where there is satisfaction. **Prabhupāda:** Unless you have faith in a person, how can you be satisfied? You should find a person in whom you can place your faith. Who can be a better person than Kṛṣṇa? **Śyāmasundara:** If certain conditions are met, satisfaction is transformed into value. If my hunger is satisfied by eating certain food, that food is given value. **Prabhupāda:** It is Kṛṣṇa who gives that value. In the beginning of *Bhagavad-gītā,* Arjuna was refusing to fight, but because he valued Kṛṣṇa and was satisfied by his faith in Kṛṣṇa, he was victorious. **Śyāmasundara:** For Dewey, moral laws may serve as guidelines for action. They are comparable to physical laws, in that if I act in a certain way, I can expect a certain result. **Prabhupāda:** We prescribe: > ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā > tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ > athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati > sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ **"In the beginning, the neophyte devotee must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring him to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage, he becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and, under his instruction, begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, he becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This taste leads him further forward to attachment for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is matured in *bhāva,* or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called *premā,* the highest perfectional stage of life." [*Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu*] If you follow one step after the other, you get the results. If you have faith, and associate with the devotees, you will be eager to execute devotional service. Then all misgivings are eradicated, and your faith becomes firm. Unless you experience the next result, how can you make progress? Moral guidelines are also given by Rūpa Gosvāmī:** > utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt > tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt > saṅga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ > ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati **"There are six principles favorable to the execution of pure devotional service:** being enthusiastic, endeavoring with confidence, being patient, acting according to regulative principles [such as *śravaṇaṁ *kīrtanaṁ* *viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam*—hearing, chanting, and remembering Kṛṣṇa], abandoning the association of nondevotees, and following in the footsteps of the previous *acāryās.* These six principles undoubtedly assure the complete success of pure devotional service." [*Upadeśāmṛta* 3] We should be patient, enthusiastic, and firmly convinced. We should be fair in our dealings, and should associate with saintly persons. In this way, we can advance. **Śyāmasundara:** Then the results follow these guidelines predictably and automatically? **Prabhupāda:** Yes, one after another. A teacher instructs his students, and when they realize one instruction, he gives another, then another. In this way, the students can make progress. Consider the guidelines. First of all, we must be enthusiastic. Unless we are enthusiastic, how can we enter into any activity? We should also be patient. We should not think, "Oh, I am working so hard, but am getting no results." The results will come in time. We should also have firm conviction that because we have taken the path of the *mahājanas,* the path prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, success is imminent. Although success may be delayed, it doesn't really matter. We must know that success will definitely come. We must also perform our prescribed duties fairly and in good faith. And we should also associate with saintly people. This will give us impetus. If we follow these guidelines, the result is certain and predictable. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey believes that moral laws are not inflexible absolute rules that never permit exceptions. **Prabhupāda:** The real moral law is the law of the Supreme. In *the *Bhagavad-gītā**, Kṛṣṇa described many different types of yoga: dhyāna*-yoga, *jñāna-yoga,* haṭha-*yoga, and so on. However, at the end, He said, *sarva-dharmān *parityajya.* "Abandon all these dharmas and surrender unto Me." [*Bg.* 18.66] Kṛṣṇa's word is the ultimate morality. Vaiṣṇavas do not consider this or that moral or immoral. Whatever Kṛṣṇa or His representative orders is moral. That is our position. **Śyāmasundara:** Dewey claims that we place value upon that which we must act on. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, there is certainly value in Kṛṣṇa, and because Arjuna followed the decision of Kṛṣṇa, he became victorious, enjoyed his kingdom, and became a famous devotee. These were practical results of his activities. Parīkṣit Mahārāja compared the battle of Kurukṣetra to a great ocean in which Bhīṣma, Droṇa, Karṇa, and others were like great sharks. It was important for his grandfather, Arjuna, to cross that ocean, which was dangerously infested with many ferocious fish. Although this was very difficult, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it was possible. > yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo > yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ > tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir > dhruvā nītir matir mama "Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion." [*Bg.* 18.78]