# 02 The Early Theists ## Plotinus [2057-2070 A.D.] **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus, as well as Origen, studied philosophy in Alexandria under the supposed founder of Neo-Platonism, Ammonius Saccas. Plotinus ascribed to a theory of emanation, which holds that the soul emanates from the intelligence just as the intelligence emanates from the One. The intelligence [*nous*] is multiple and yet one at the same time. The One is omnipresent, devoid of multiplicity, impersonal, and transcendental. For Plotinus, there is a kind of hierarchy headed by the One, to which the intelligence and individual souls are subordinate. **Prabhupāda:** According to the Vedic conception, the Supreme Absolute Truth is one. The individual souls are of the same quality as the Supreme One, but they are fragmental parts, and they emanate from Him. The individual souls have the same intelligence and mind, but their jurisdiction is limited. As individual souls, we are present, but we are not omnipresent. God is omnipresent. We have some knowledge, but we are not omniscient. We are not dull matter, but are sentient beings. The Supreme One has all spiritual qualities in full, whereas we have them in minute quantity. We are like sparks, and the Supreme One is like a great fire. That is our constitutional position in relation to the One. When sparks fly away from a great fire, they are extinguished. When we turn from the One, our illumination is obscured, and we are enveloped in māyā, darkness. If we revive our relationship with the One, we can revive our illuminating power, which is our spiritual power, and live with the Supreme One in a peaceful, eternal life of bliss. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus was an impersonalist in that he believed that by attributing qualities to God, we necessarily limit Him. Although the One is transcendental, there is no multiplicity in Him. At the same time, God is the cause of all multiplicities. **Prabhupāda:** According to the Vedic conception, the Supreme One is the cause of all living entities. > nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām > eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān > tam ātmasthaṁ ye 'nupaśyanti dhīrās > teṣāṁśāntiḥśāśvatī netareṣām > [Katha 2.2.13] **In the *Kaṭha Upaniṣad,* as well as the Śvetāśvatara* *Upaniṣad,* it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead maintains innumerable living entities. He is the Supreme Eternal Being. Among eternal living beings, He is the chief. He has unlimited transcendental qualities and is therefore omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. If He did not have these qualities, He could not be perfect. He is the unlimited cause of everything, and, being unlimited, cannot be limited. I do not know what Plotinus means when he says that God's attributes are limiting. In no way can God be limited. Everything is Brahman unlimitedly. Mat-sthāni *sarva-bhūtāni* [*Bg.* 9.4]. Everything emanates from Him, and everything rests on Him. Considered impersonally, God is everywhere, and considered personally, He is localized. The impersonal effulgence, however, emanates from the person. This is verified by Bhagavad-gītā*:** > brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham > amṛtasyāvyayasya ca > śāśvatasya ca dharmasya > sukhasyaikāntikasya ca "And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable, and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness." [*Bg.* 14.27] Although the sun is situated in one place, its rays are distributed throughout the universe; similarly, the Supreme Lord unlimitedly expands His transcendental impersonal feature, the *brahma-jyoti.* If we consider the personality, it may appear that He is limited, but He is not. Through His energies, He is unlimited. > vadanti tat tattva-vidas > tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam > brahmeti paramātmeti > bhagavān iti śabdyate "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagāvan." [*SB.* 1.2.11] The impersonal feature is all-pervading. The localized aspect, the Paramātmā, is also omnipresent, living within the hearts of all living entities. The personal feature, the Paramātmā, is even within every atom and is thus worshipped by the devotee. When the devotee is present, the Supreme Lord is also personally present, although He resides in Goloka Vṛndāvana. That is the nature of His omnipresence. No one can calculate the distance to Goloka Vṛndāvana, but when a devotee like Prahlāda is in danger, the Supreme Lord is immediately present. He can protect His devotee even though He be trillions of miles away. This is the meaning of omnipresence. **Hayagrīva:** Although Plotinus believed that God is present in all objects throughout the universe, God remains distinct from all created things and also transcendental to them. Thus God is more than all pervading. **Prabhupāda:** That is clearly explained in *Bhagavad-gītā:* > mayātatam idaṁ sarvaṁ > jagad avyakta-mūrtinā > mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni > na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ > na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni > paśya me yogam aiśvaram > bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho > mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ > yathākāśa-sthito nityaṁ > vāyuḥ sarvatra-go mahān > tathā sarvāṇi bhūtāni > mat-sthānīty upadhāraya "By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them. And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, I am not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the very source of creation. Understand that as the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, all created beings rest in Me." [*Bg.* 9.4–6] **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus envisioned the individual souls existing in different states: some embodied, others unembodied. Some are celestial and do not suffer, whereas others are terrestrial. In any case, they are all individuals. **Prabhupāda:** No one can count the number of souls. They have the same qualities possessed by the One, but they have them in minute quantity. Some of these souls have fallen into the material atmosphere, whereas others, called *nitya-mukta,* are everlastingly liberated. The *nitya-muktas* are never conditioned. These souls that have fallen into this material world in order to gratify their senses are called *nitya-baddha,* eternally conditioned. By "eternal," we mean that no one can estimate the amount of time the conditioned soul has to spend within the material world. The creation goes on perpetually; sometimes it is manifest and sometimes not. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the conditioned souls continue to exist within the material world. Before the creation, the conditioned soul is present in a dormant condition, and when the manifestation comes out from the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the individual soul awakens. For the deliverance of such conditioned souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends Himself, or sends His incarnation or devotee to call the nitya-baddha*s back home, back to Godhead. Those who are fortunate take advantage of this. Those who are unfortunate are not interested and thus remain conditioned within this material world. The material world is created and annihilated, and the conditioned souls suffer in this cycle. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus believed that the soul is eternal and incorporeal in men, animals, and even plants. In this, he differed from many other philosophers at the time. **Prabhupāda:** It is also the Vedic conclusion [*sarva-yoniṣu*] that the living soul, which is part and parcel of God, is present in all different life species. Those who are foolish think the animal has no soul, but there is no rational basis for this belief. An animal may be less intelligent than a man, just as a child may be less intelligent than his father, but this does not mean that no soul is present. This type of mentality is ruining civilization. People have become so degraded that they even think that an embryo has no soul. From Kṛṣṇa we understand that everyone has a soul and that the soul is undoubtedly present in all different life forms. The individual soul evolves from a lower type of body to a higher one, and this is the meaning of spiritual evolution. Once in the human form, the individual soul can understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā,* and, if he likes, surrender to the Supreme Lord and return to the Godhead. If he does not care to do so, he remains in this material world to undergo the tribulations of repeated birth, old age, disease, and death. Thus he takes on another corporeal body. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus sees the soul as returning to God, the One, through three stages. In the first, the individual soul must learn detachment from the material world. In the second, he separates himself from the reasoning process itself. This is the highest point that philosophy or mental speculation can attain. In the third stage, the intellect transcends itself into the realm of the unknown, the One. Plotinus writes: "Because it is intellect, it contemplates what it contemplates [the One] by reasoning of that in it which is not intellect." **Prabhupāda:** According to the *Vedas,* there are also three stages: karma, *jñāna,* and yoga. The *karmīs* try to improve their condition by material science and education. Some try to go to the heavenly planets by performing pious activities. Superior to the *karmīs* are the *jñānīs,* who speculate on the Absolute Truth and conclude that God is impersonal. The yogīs attempt to acquire some mystic powers by practicing the mystic yoga system. By this system, they acquire *aṣṭa-siddhi,* eight different perfections. They can become lighter than the lightest, smaller than the smallest, bigger than the biggest, and so on. Real yoga, however, means seeing the Supreme within the core of the heart. All three processes require a strenuous endeavor. The supreme process is *bhakti-*yoga, whereby one simply surrenders to the Supreme. The Supreme One gives the *bhakti-yogī* the intelligence by which he can be freed from material entanglement. > teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ > bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam > dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ > yena mām upayānti te ""To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." [*Bg.* 10.10] **Hayagrīva:** For Plotinus, matter is evil in the sense that it imprisons the soul, yet the visible cosmos is beautiful. Evil does not arise from the creator. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, being attracted by this illusory energy, the individual soul comes here for sense gratification. The Supreme Lord does not desire him to come, but he comes propelled by his personal desires. God gives the living entity freedom, and in the beginning, the conditioned living entity begins life from a very exalted position in this material world. Sometimes he has the powers of a Brahmā, but due to material activities, he becomes entangled and degraded. He can thus fall from the position of a Brahmā to that of a worm in stool. Therefore we find so many different species. Degradation and elevation are thus taking place, and the living entity is sometimes elevated and sometimes degraded. In this way, he suffers. When he understands that degradation and elevation are perpetually taking place, and are the cause of his suffering, he begins to seek for the Supreme One, Kṛṣṇa. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he gets a bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of both, he gets a chance to engage in devotional service. With a little effort and sincerity, the conditioned living entity attains perfection in devotional service and returns back to Godhead. **Hayagrīva:** Although most of Plotinus's philosophy deals with the impersonal aspect, he writes, "Let us flee to the beloved fatherland. The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the Father." **Prabhupāda:** As long as we speculate, we will be confused and will not know whether the Supreme Absolute Truth is personal or impersonal. However, when there is a question of love between the Absolute and the individual souls, there must be a personal conception. In truth, God is a person, Kṛṣṇa. When the living entity, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, contacts a devotee, his impersonal conceptions are subordinated to the personal aspect, and he worships Kṛṣṇa and His devotee. **Hayagrīva:** Concerning the soul's conditioning, or fall, Plotinus believes that the human soul never entirely leaves the intelligible or spiritual realm. **Prabhupāda:** Because the living entity is an eternal spiritual being, he is not a product of this material world. He is part and parcel of the Supreme One, but he is embodied by the material elements. As the material elements change, he becomes old. When our clothes no longer fit, or if they wear out, we have to acquire new ones. Material life means change, but as spirit souls, we are eternal and changeless. Material life is not very happy because it is always changing. Whether we are in a comfortable or miserable condition, our condition will change for better or worse. In any case, we have to save ourselves from the repetition of changing bodies. If we want to remain in our original spiritual form, we have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus writes: "If the souls remain in the intelligible realm with the Soul, they are beyond harm, and share in the Soul's governance. They are like kings who live with the high King and govern with him and like him, and do not come down from the palace.... But there comes a point at which they come down from this state, cosmic in its dimensions, to one of individuality. They wish to become independent.... When a soul remains for long in this withdrawal in estrangement from the whole, with never a glance toward the intelligible, it becomes a thing fragmented, isolated, and weak...." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is his falldown and the beginning of his material tribulations. As long as the living entity is maintained in the material world, he thinks of material happiness, and, according to nature's law, he accepts a variety of bodies. Although conditioned, the spirit soul remains part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Yet according to the circumstance, he thinks in terms of a particular body. He thinks that he is a dog, a man, an aquatic, and so on. According to material considerations, one thinks himself an American, Indian, Hindu, Moslem, male, or female. All these designations are due to the body, and when one understands that he is different from the body, he begins his spiritual education. Understanding himself as the eternal part and parcel of God leads to liberation. When one advances, he understands that the Supreme Truth is the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa. He then engages in Kṛṣṇa's service, and that is his actual spiritual life. Kṛṣṇa lives in the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual world, and the devotee can be promoted to any of these planets, or to the supreme planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Once he is there, he is happy as an associate of Kṛṣṇa, and he can enjoy life eternally. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus conceives of the soul as basically having two parts, a lower part directed toward the corporeal, and a higher part directed toward the spiritual. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, and that means that the soul is prone to fall. Because the individual soul is very minute, there is the tendency to fall, just as a small spark may fall from a fire. Because we are only minute particles of God, we can become entangled by His material external energy. An unintelligent man may commit some crime and go to jail, but we should not think that he has been created for the purpose of going to jail. It is said that those who descend into the material world are less intelligent because they think that they can enjoy life independent of Kṛṣṇa. A rich man's son may think that he can live independent of his father, but that is his foolishness. The Supreme Father is full in all opulences, and if we live under His care, we naturally live very comfortably. When an intelligent man realizes that he is the son of Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, "Let me go back to my Father." This is the proper use of intelligence. An intelligent person knows perfectly well that he will be happy with Kṛṣṇa and unhappy without Him. Learning this is part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a man cannot be happy. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus also believes that the cosmic order awards and punishes everyone according to merit. **Prabhupāda:** When a father sees that his son has gone astray, he tries to bring him back home, either through punishment or some other way. This is the duty of an affectionate father. Those who are foolishly suffering in the material world are being punished for the purposes of correction. This is to bring the living entity to his proper position. If one is sufficiently intelligent, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, revives his old constitutional position, and attains the spiritual platform of bliss and knowledge. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus uses the following metaphor: "We are like a chorus that allows the audience to distract its attention from the conductor. If, however, we were to turn towards our conductor, we would sing as we should and would really be with him. We're always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that, all discord past, we dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance, the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the Intelligence, the root of Being, the cause of the Good, the root of the Soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mask." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is a good metaphor. God is an individual, and the countless souls are also individuals. Sometimes they sing in tune, and sometimes their attention is diverted by the audience. When this happens, they fall out of tune. Similarly, when we divert our attention to the illusory energy, we fall down. Of course, we remain part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but the influence of material energy covers us, and we identify with the gross elements life after life. We identify with the body, which is but a changing dress. Therefore we must first of all understand that we are not the gross material covering. This is taught in the very beginning of *Bhagavad-gītā,* wherein Kṛṣṇa explains to Arjuna that since he is not the body, he should not consider the battle from a material, bodily platform. Our identity is that of spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit. We should therefore act according to His directions. By doing so, we become freed from material designations and gradually develop our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus accounts for the soul's conditioning in this way: "How is it, then, that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different, and desiring to be independent. Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin. And when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it." **Prabhupāda:** That is correct. The more one turns from Kṛṣṇa, the more degraded one becomes. I have already explained that the living entity may begin his life as Lord Brahmā and eventually become so degraded that he becomes a worm in stool. Again, by nature's way, one may evolve to the human form, which gives him a chance to understand how he has fallen from his original position. By taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can put an end to this transmigration. Everyone has to give up the material body, but when a devotee gives up his body, he does not have to accept another. He is immediately transferred to the spiritual world. *M***ām** *eti* [Bg. 4.9]. "He comes to Me." For a devotee, death means giving up the material body and remaining in the original, spiritual body. It is said that whether a devotee lives or dies, his business is the same: devotional service. Those who are degraded in material life—like butchers, who daily cut the throats of many animals—are advised, "Don't live, and don't die." This is because their present life is abominable, and their future life will be filled with suffering. The devotee is liberated because he is indifferent to living or dying. He is *jīvan-mukta,* which indicates that although his body is rotting in the material world, he is liberated. In *the *Bhagavad-gītā**, Kṛṣṇa affirms that His devotee is not subject to the modes of material nature. > daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī > mama māyā duratyayā > mām eva ye prapadyante > māyām etāṁ taranti te **"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome, but those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." [*Bg.* 7.14] The devotee is therefore situated on the Brahman platform. It is our constitutional position to serve:** either māyā or Kṛṣṇa. *Jivera 'svarupa' haya—kṛṣṇera 'nitya-Dāsa'.* Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given our real identity as being the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. Presently everyone is rendering service to his family, community, nation, and so on. When this service is rendered cent per cent to Kṛṣṇa, we are liberated. Due to a poor fund of knowledge, impersonalists think that *mukti,* liberation, means inactivity, but there is no basis for this belief. The soul is naturally active, and because the soul is within the body, the body is engaged in many activities. The body in itself is inactive, but it acts because the soul is present. When we give up the bodily conception, why should activities stop? Māyāvādīs cannot understand that the active principle is the soul. When the active principle leaves the body, the body is called dead. Even if one is liberated from the material body, he must act. That is also explained in the *Bhakti-śāstra:* > sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ > tat-paratvena nirmalam > hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa- > sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate "*Bhakti,* or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. He is freed from all material designations, and, simply by being employed in the service of the Lord, his senses are purified." [Nārada Pañcarātra] **Hayagrīva:** Plotinus writes: "A soul in such a condition [of forgetfulness] can be turned about and led back to the world above and the supreme existent, the One. This can be done by a two-fold discipline: By showing it the low value of the things it esteems at present, and by informing—reminding!—it of its nature and worth." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, this is the process. One may understand or not, but if one is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service under the direction of the spiritual master, he automatically gives up the service of māyā and is liberated. > viṣayā vinivartante > nirāhārasya dehinaḥ > rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya > paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate "Though the embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." [*Bg.* 2.59] However, if he again voluntarily accepts māyā's service, he again becomes conditioned. By rendering service to Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, we can come to understand all that need be known. The devotees do not speculate about their position; they know it by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. > teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ > bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam > dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ > yena mām upayānti te > teṣām evānukampārtham > aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ > nāśayāmy ātma-bhāvastho > jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā "To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me. To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance." [*Bg.* 10.10–11] ## Origen [185-254] **Hayagrīva:** Origen is generally considered the founder of formal Christian philosophy, because he was the first to attempt to establish Christianity on the basis of philosophy as well as faith. He believed that the ultimate spiritual reality consists of the supreme, infinite Person, God, as well as individual personalities. Ultimate reality may be defined as the relationships of persons with one another and with the infinite Person Himself. In this view, Origen differs from the Greeks, who were basically impersonalists. **Prabhupāda:** Our Vedic conception is almost the same. Individual souls, which we call living entities, are always present, and each one of them has an intimate relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In material conditional life, the living entity has forgotten this relationship. By rendering devotional service, he attains the liberated position and at that time revives his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. **Hayagrīva:** Origen ascribed to a doctrine of the Trinity, in which God the Father is supreme. God the Son, called the *Logos,* is subordinate to the Father. It is the Son who brings the material world into existence. That is, God the Father is not the direct creator; rather, it is the Son who creates directly, like Lord Brahmā. The third aspect of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, who is subordinate to the Son. According to Origen, all three of these aspects are divine and co-eternal. They have always existed simultaneously as the Trinity of God. **Prabhupāda:** According to the *Vedas,* Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. As confirmed by Bhagavad-gītā*: *ahaṁ *sarvasya* *prabhavaḥ.* "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds." [*Bg.* 10.8] Whether you call this origin the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, it doesn't matter. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the origin. According to the Vedic conception, there are two types of expansion: God's personal expansions, called Viṣṇu-tattva,* and His partial part-and-parcel expansions called *jīva-tattva.* There are many varieties of personal expansions: *puruṣa-avatāras, śaktyāveśa-avatāras, manvantara-avatāras,* and so on. For the creation of this material world, the Lord expands as Brahmā, Viṣṇu, and Maheśvara [Śiva]. Viṣṇu is a personal expansion, and Brahmā is a *jīva-tattva* expansion. Between the personal Viṣṇu-tattva* expansion and the *jīva-tattva* expansion is a kind of intermediate expansion called Śiva, or Maheśvara. The material ingredients are given, and Brahmā creates the particular creation. Viṣṇu maintains the creation, and Lord Śiva annihilates it. It is the nature of the external potency to be created, maintained, and dissolved. More detailed information is given in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.* In any case, the *jīvas,* or living entities, are all considered to be sons of God. They are situated in one of two positions: liberated or conditioned. Those who are liberated can personally associate with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and those who are conditioned within this material world have forgotten the Supreme Lord. Therefore they suffer within this material world in different bodily forms. They can be elevated, however, through the practice of Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the guidance of the *śāstras* and the bona fide guru. **Hayagrīva:** Origen believed that it is through the combined working of divine grace and man's free will that the individual soul attains perfection, which consists of attaining a personal relationship with the infinite Person. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, and that is called *bhakti-mārga.* The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagāvan. Bhagāvan is the personal feature, and the Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, may he compared to the Holy Spirit. The Brahman feature is present everywhere. The highest perfection of spiritual life includes the understanding of the personal feature of the Lord. When one understands Bhagāvan, one engages in His service. In this way, the living entity is situated in his original constitutional position and is eternally blissful. **Hayagrīva:** Origen considered that just as man's free will precipitated his fall, man's free will can also bring about salvation. Man can return to God by practicing material detachment. Such detachment can be made possible by help from the *Logos,* the Christ. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is also our conception. The fallen soul is transmigrating within this material world, up and down in different forms of life. When his consciousness is sufficiently developed, he can be enlightened by God, who gives him instructions in the *Bhagavad-gītā.* Through the spiritual master's help, he can attain full enlightenment. When he understands his transcendental position of bliss, he automatically gives up material bodily attachments. Then he attains freedom. The living entity attains his normal, constitutional position when he is properly situated in his spiritual identity and engaged in the service of the Lord. **Hayagrīva:** Origen believed that all the elements found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the "interior man." Origen writes: "There are two men in each of us—As every exterior man has for homonym the interior man, so it is for all his members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man—" Thus for every sense that we possess in the exterior body, there is a corresponding sense in the interior, or spiritual body. **Prabhupāda:** The spirit soul is now within this material body, but originally the spirit soul had no material body. The spiritual body of the spirit soul is eternally existing. The material body is simply a coating of the spiritual body. The material body is cut, like a suit, according to the spiritual body. The material elements—earth, water, air, fire, etc.—become like a clay when mixed together, and they coat the spiritual body. It is because the spiritual body has a shape that the material body also takes a shape. In actuality, the material body has nothing to do with the spiritual body; it is but a kind of contamination causing the suffering of the spirit soul. As soon as the spirit soul is coated with this material contamination, he identifies himself with the coating and forgets his real spiritual body. That is called māyā, ignorance, or illusion. This ignorance continues as long as we are not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. When we become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, we understand that the material body is but the external coating and that we are different. When we attain this uncontaminated understanding, we arrive at what is called the *brahma-bhūta* platform. When the spirit soul, which is Brahman, is under the illusion of the material bodily conditioning, we are on the *jīva-bhūta* platform. *Brahma-bhūta* is attained when we no longer identify with the material body but with the spirit soul within. When we come to this platform, we become joyful. > brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā > na śocati na kāṅkṣati > samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu > mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." [*Bg.* 18.54] In this position, one sees all living entities as spirit souls; he does not see the outward covering. When he sees a dog, he sees a spirit soul covered by the body of a dog. This state is also described in Bhagavad-gītā.* > vidyā-vinaya-sampanne > brāhmaṇe gavi hastini > śuni caiva śvapāke ca > paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ “The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle *brāhmaṇa,* a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater [outcaste]." [*Bg.* 5.18] When one is in the body of an animal, he cannot understand his spiritual identity. This identity can best be realized in a human civilization in which the *varṇāśrama* system is practiced. This system divides life into four *āśramas* [*brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya,* and *śūdrā*], and four *varṇas* [*brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha,* and *sannyāsī*]. The highest position is that of a *brāhmaṇa-sannyāsī,* a platform from which one may best realize his original constitutional position, act accordingly, and thus attain deliverance, or *mukti.* *Mukti* means understanding our constitutional position and acting accordingly. Conditional life, a life of bondage, means identifying with the body and acting on the bodily platform. On the *mukti* platform, our activities differ from those enacted on the conditional platform. Devotional service is rendered from the *mukti* platform. If we engage in devotional service, we maintain our spiritual identity and are therefore liberated, even though inhabiting the conditional, material body. **Hayagrīva:** Origen also believed that the interior man, or the spiritual body, also has spiritual senses that enable the soul to taste, see, touch, and contemplate the things of God. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. That is devotional life. **Hayagrīva:** During his lifetime, Origen was a famous teacher and was very much in demand. For him, preaching meant explaining the words of God and no more. He believed that a preacher must first be a man of prayer and must be in contact with God. He should not pray for material goods but for a better understanding of the scriptures. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is a real preacher. As explained in Vedic literatures: *śravaṇaṁ, kīrtanaṁ.* First of all, we become perfect by hearing. This is called *śravaṇaṁ.* When we are thus situated by hearing perfectly from an authorized person, our next stage begins: *kīrtana,* preaching. In this material world, everyone is hearing something from someone else. In order to pass examinations, a student must hear his professor. Then, in his own right, he can become a professor himself. If we hear from a spiritualized person, we become perfect and can become real preachers. We should preach about Viṣṇu for Viṣṇu, not for any person within this material world. We should hear and preach about the Supreme Person, the transcendental Personality of Godhead. That is the duty of a liberated soul. **Hayagrīva:** As far as contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered them to be stumbling blocks permitted to exist by God in order for man to pass beyond the literal meaning. He writes that "everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning." **Prabhupāda:** Generally speaking, every word in scripture has a literal meaning, but people cannot understand it properly because they do not hear from the proper person. They interpret instead. There is no need to interpret the words of God. Sometimes the words of God cannot be understood by an ordinary person; therefore we may require the transparent medium of the guru. Since the guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God, we are advised to receive the words of the scriptures through the guru. There is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our imperfect knowledge, we sometimes cannot understand. Not understanding, we try to interpret, but because we are imperfect, our interpretations are also imperfect. The purport is that the words of God, the scriptures, should be understood from a person who has realized God. **Hayagrīva:** For Origen, there are two rebirths. The first is a baptism, which is something like a mystical union between Christ and the soul. Baptism marked the first stage in spiritual life: from there, one could regress or progress. Baptism is compared to a shadow of the ultimate rebirth, which is complete purification and rebirth in the spiritual world with Christ. When the soul is reborn with Christ, it receives a spiritual body like Christ and beholds Christ face to face. **Prabhupāda:** What is the position of Christ? **Hayagrīva:** He is seated at the right hand of the Father in the kingdom of God. **Prabhupāda:** But when Christ was present on earth, many people saw him. **Hayagrīva:** They saw him in many different ways, just as the people saw Kṛṣṇa in many different ways. **Prabhupāda:** Is it that Christ is seen in his full spiritual body? **Hayagrīva:** When the soul is reborn with Christ, it beholds Christ's spiritual body through its spiritual senses. **Prabhupāda:** Yes. We also think in this way. **Hayagrīva:** Origen did not believe that the individual soul has been existing from all eternity. It was created. He writes: "The rational natures that were made in the beginning did not always exist; they came into being when they were created." **Prabhupāda:** That is not correct. Both the living entity and God are simultaneously eternally existing, and the living entity is part and parcel of God. Although eternally existing, the living entity is changing his body. *Na hanyate hanyamāne *śarīre* [*Bg.* 2.20]. One body after another is being created and destroyed, but the living being is eternally existing. So we disagree when Origen says that the soul is created. Our spiritual identity is never created. That is the difference between spirit and matter. Material things are created, but the spiritual is without beginning. > na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ > na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ > na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ > sarve vayam ataḥ param "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." [*Bg.* 2.12] **Hayagrīva:** Origen differed from later Church doctrine in his belief in transmigration. Although he believed that the soul was originally created, he also believed that it transmigrated because it could always refuse to give itself to God. So he saw the individual soul as possibly rising and falling perpetually on the evolutionary scale. Later Church doctrine held that one's choice for eternity is made in this one lifetime. As Origen saw it, the individual soul, falling short of the ultimate goal, is reincarnated again and again. **Prabhupāda:** Yes, that is the Vedic version. Unless one is liberated and goes to the kingdom of God, he must transmigrate from one material body to another. The material body grows, remains for some time, reproduces, grows old, and becomes useless. Then the living entity has to leave one body for another. Once in a new body, he again attempts to fulfill his desires, and again he goes through the process of dying and accepting another material body. This is the process of transmigration. **Hayagrīva:** It is interesting that neither Origen nor Christ rejected transmigration. It wasn't until Augustine that it was denied. **Prabhupāda:** Transmigration is a fact. A person cannot wear the same clothes all of his life. Our clothes become old and useless, and we have to change them. The living being is certainly eternal, but he has to accept a material body for material sense gratification, and such a body cannot endure perpetually. All of this is thoroughly explained in *Bhagavad-gītā.* *dehino 'smin yathā dehe*** kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati** "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." [*Bg.* 2.13] *śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ gṛhītvaitāni saṁyāti vāyur gandhān *ivāśayāt* "The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another, as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another. " [*Bg.* 15.8] ## Augustine [354-430] **Hayagrīva:** Augustine considered the soul to be spiritual and incorporeal, but he also believed that the soul of the individual does not exist prior to birth. The soul attains its immortality only at death, and then goes on to live through eternity. **Prabhupāda:** If the soul is created, how is it immortal? How can the soul sometimes not be eternal? **Hayagrīva:** Augustine would say that the soul is immortal after it is created, but that at a certain point it is brought into being. **Prabhupāda:** Then what does he consider death to be? **Hayagrīva:** Augustine recognizes two types of death: physical death, wherein the soul leaves the body; and soul-death, which is the death experienced by the soul when God abandons it. When one is damned, he faces not only physical death but spiritual soul-death as well. **Prabhupāda:** Figuratively speaking, when one forgets his position, he undergoes a kind of death, but the soul is eternal. What Augustine calls spiritual death is forgetfulness. When one is unconscious, he forgets his identity, but when one is dead, he cannot revive his consciousness. Of course, until one acquires his freedom from material existence, he is spiritually dead, even though existing in the material form. Forgetfulness of our real identity is a kind of death. When we are alive to God consciousness, we are actually alive. In any case, the soul is eternal and survives the annihilation of the body. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine would consider that in some cases the forgetful stage is eternal. **Prabhupāda:** It is not. Our consciousness can always be revived, and that is the conviction of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We say that a man is unconscious when he is sleeping, but if you call him again and again, the sound of his name enters his ear, and he awakes. Similarly, this process of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa *mahā-mantra* awakens us to spiritual consciousness. Then we can live a spiritual life. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine would say that God eternally abandons the damned soul to eternal perdition. **Prabhupāda:** He may be "eternally abandoned" in the sense that he may remain forgetful for millions of years. It may seem eternal, but our spiritual consciousness can be revived at any moment by good association, by the method of hearing and chanting. Devotional service therefore begins with *śravaṇaṁ,* hearing. In the beginning, especially, hearing is very important. If we hear the truth from a self-realized soul, we can awake to spiritual life and remain spiritually alive in devotional service. **Hayagrīva:** In *The City of God,* Augustine refers to two cities, or societies: one demonic, and the other divine. In one city, love of God and the spirit is the unifying factor; and in the other, love of the world and the flesh is dominant. Augustine writes: "These are two loves, the one of which is holy, the other unholy; one social, the other individualistic; the one is subject to God, the other sets itself up as a rival to God." **Prabhupāda:** A similar allegory is given in *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.* The body is likened to a city, and the soul is likened to the king of that city. The body has nine gates, and the king can leave the city through these gates. These detailed descriptions are given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam*. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine seems to admit the transcendence of God, but not His omnipresence as the Paramātmā accompanying each individual soul. He writes: "God is not the soul of all things, but the maker of all souls." **Prabhupāda:** Then how is God all pervading? The Paramātmā is accepted as the Supersoul both in *Brahma-saṁhitā* and in Bhagavad-gītā.* > upadraṣṭānumantā ca > bhartā bhoktā maheśvaraḥ > paramātmeti cāpy ukto > dehe 'smin puruṣaḥ paraḥ "Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the Supersoul." [*Bg.* 13.23] God is present in every atom. > viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam > ekāṁśena sthito jagat "With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." [*Bg.* 10.42] > vadanti tat tattva-vidas > tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam > brahmeti paramātmeti > bhagavān iti śabdyate "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagāvan." [*SB.* 1.2.11] Certainly God has the potency of omnipresence. This cannot be denied. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine disagrees with Origen's contention that the body is like a prison. He writes: "If the opinion of Origen and his followers were true—that matter was created that souls might be enclosed in bodies, as in penitentiaries for the punishment of sin—then the higher and lighter bodies should have been for those whose sins were slight, and the lower and heavier ones for those whose crimes were great." **Prabhupāda:** The soul is essentially part and parcel of God, but is imprisoned in different types of bodies. In *the *Bhagavad-gītā** Kṛṣṇa says: > sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya > mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ > tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir > ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā "It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father." [*Bg.* 14.4] From material nature, the mother, different species are coming. They are found in earth, water, air, and even fire. The individual souls, however, are part and parcel of the Supreme, who impregnates them within this material world. The living entity then comes out into the material world through the womb of some mother. It appears that the soul is coming out of matter, but it is not composed of matter. The souls, always part and parcel of God, assume different types of bodies according to pious or impious activities or desires. The desires of the soul determine higher or lower bodies. In any case, the soul is the same. It is therefore said that those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness see the same soul in each and every body, be it the body of a dog, or a *brāhmaṇa.* > vidyā-vinaya-sampanne > brāhmaṇe gavi hastini > śuni caiva śvapāke ca > paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ "The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle *brāhmaṇa,* a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater [outcaste]." [*Bg.* 5.18] **Hayagrīva:** Augustine looked on Adam as the root of mankind. He writes: "God knew how good it would be for this community often to recall that the human race had its roots in one man, precisely to show how pleasing it is to God that men, though many, should be one." **Prabhupāda:** Our Vedic conception is similar. We say that mankind has come from Manu. From Manu, we get the Sanskrit word *māṇuṣaḥ,* which means "coming from Manu," or "human being." Manu himself comes from Brahmā, who is the first living being. Thus living beings come from other living beings, not from matter. Brahmā, in his turn, comes from the Supreme Lord as rajo-guṇa *avatāra.* Indeed, Brahmā is the incarnation of *rajo-guṇa,* the mode of passion. All living beings ultimately come from the supreme living Being. **Hayagrīva:** Like Origen, Augustine considered the soul to be created at a particular time, but unlike Origen, he rejected reincarnation: "Let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnation as punishment for our souls. Reincarnation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God, how can the return to bodies, which are gifts of God, be punishment?" **Prabhupāda:** Does he think that the assumption of the body of a hog or similar lower creature is not punishment? Why does one person get the body of King Indra or Lord Brahmā, and another the body of a pig or insect? How does he explain the body of a pig? If the body is a gift from God, it can also be a punishment from God. When one is rewarded, he gets the body of a Brahmā or a King Indra, and if he is punished, he gets the body of a pig. **Hayagrīva:** What about the body of a man? Is that a gift or punishment? **Prabhupāda:** There are many men who are well situated, and others who are suffering. Suffering and enjoyment take place according to the body. As explained in *Bhagavad-gītā:* > mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya > śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ > āgamāpāyino 'nityās > tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata "O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." [*Bg.* 2.14] An old man may perceive cold very acutely, whereas a young child may not perceive it. Perception is relative to the body. An animal may go naked and not feel the cold, whereas a man cannot. Thus the body is a source of suffering and enjoyment. Or we may consider this punishment and reward. **Hayagrīva:** For Augustine, the soul of each individual man is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own desire or sin, but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes: "When the first couple [Adam and Eve] were punished by the judgement of God, the whole human race...was present in the first man. And what was born was not human nature as it was originally created, but as it became after the first parents' sin and punishment—as far, at least, as concerns the origin of sin and death." In this sense, the individual partakes of the karma of the entire race. **Prabhupāda:** If this is the case, why does he call the body a gift? Why does he say that it is not punishment? The original man was punished, as well as the man after him, and so on. Sometimes a father's disease is inherited by the son. Is this not a form of punishment? **Hayagrīva:** Then the human form is a punishment in itself? **Prabhupāda:** Yes. At the same time, you can consider human life a gift because it is given by God. We should think that if God has given us this body for our punishment, it is His mercy, because by undergoing punishment we may become purified and progress toward God. Devotees think in this way. Although the body is a form of punishment, we consider it a reward because by undergoing the punishment, we are progressing toward God realization. Even when the body is given by God for our correction, it can thus be considered a gift. **Hayagrīva:** For Augustine, the physical body precedes the spiritual: "What is sown a natural body, arises a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body....But it is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical. The first man was of the earth, earthly; the second man is from heaven, heavenly.... But the body which, of the life-giving spirit, will become spiritual and immortal will under no condition be able to die. It will be immortal, just as the created soul is immortal." **Prabhupāda:** Why does he speak of immortality in connection with man only? Every living entity has an immortal body. As we said, entering the mortal body is a kind of punishment. The individual undergoes an evolutionary process from lower to higher species. Every soul is part and parcel of God, but due to some sinful activity, the living entity comes into this material world. In the Bible, it is said that due to disobedience to God, Adam and Eve lost paradise and had to come into the material world. The soul belongs to the paradise in heaven, the planets of Kṛṣṇa, but somehow or other he has fallen into this material world and has taken on a body. According to our activities, we are elevated or degraded as a demigod, human being, animal, tree, or plant. In any case, the soul is always aloof from the material body. This is confirmed by Vedic literatures. Our actual spiritual life begins when we are freed from material contamination, or transmigration. **Hayagrīva:** Concerning peace, Augustine writes: "Peace between a mortal man and his Maker consists in ordered obedience, guided by faith, under God's eternal law; peace between man and man consists in regulated fellowship... .The peace of the heavenly city lies in a perfectly ordered and harmonious communion of those who find their joy in God and in one another in God. Peace in its final sense is the calm that comes of order." **Prabhupāda:** Peace means coming in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A man in ignorance thinks that he is the enjoyer of this world, but when he contacts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme controller, he understands that God is the enjoyer. We are servants meant to supply enjoyment to God. A servant supplies the needs of his master. Actually, the master has no needs, but he enjoys the company of his servants, who in turn enjoy his company. A public servant is very happy when he receives a good government job, and a master is happy to acquire a very faithful servant. This is the relationship between the individual soul and God, and when this relationship is destroyed, it is said that the individual soul exists in māyā. When the relationship is restored, the individual is situated in his spiritual consciousness, which we call Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by which he understands that the supreme God is the actual enjoyer and proprietor as well as the Supreme Being. When we understand God's transcendental qualities, we become happy and attain peace. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine felt that neither activity nor meditation should be exclusive but should complement one another: "No man must be so committed to contemplation as, in his contemplation, to give no thought to his neighbor's needs, nor so absorbed in action as to dispense with the contemplation of God." **Prabhupāda:** Unless you think of God, how can you be active in the service of God? Real meditation is meditation on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or the Supersoul within the core of the heart. Activity and meditation should go together, however. If we sit down and think of God, it is commendable, but if we work for God as God desires, our position is superior. If you love me and simply sit and think of me, that is commendable. That may be considered meditation. However, if you love me, it is better that you carry out my orders. That is more important. **Hayagrīva:** Augustine conceived of a spiritual world in which the movements of the spiritual bodies "will be of such unimaginable beauty that I dare not say more than this: There will be such poise, such grace, such beauty as become a place where nothing unbecoming can be found. Wherever the spirit wills, there, in a flash, the body will be....God will be the source of every satisfaction. He will be the consummation of all our desiring, the object of our unending vision, of our unlessening love, of our unwearying praise....The souls in bliss will still possess freedom of will, though sin will have no power to tempt them." **Prabhupāda:** Yes, sin cannot touch one who remains in contact with God. According to our desires, we associate with the modes of material nature and acquire different types of bodies. Nature, the agent of Kṛṣṇa, affords us facilities by giving us a body, which is like a machine. When a son insists, "Father, give me a cycle," the affectionate father complies. This is a typical relationship between a father and his son. As explained in *Bhagavad-gītā:* > īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ > hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati > bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni > yantrārūḍhāni māyayā "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." [*Bg.* 18.61] The Supreme Father, Kṛṣṇa, is within the core of everyone's heart. As the living entity desires, the Father supplies a body manufactured by material nature. This body is destined to suffer, but the spiritual bodies in the Vaikuṇṭhas are not subject to birth, old age, disease, or death, nor the threefold miseries. They are eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. **Hayagrīva:** For Augustine, the mind, reason, and the soul are one and the same. **Prabhupāda:** No, these are different identities. The mind acts according to the intelligence, but the intelligence of different living entities differs. Similarly, minds also differ. A dog's intelligence is not equal to that of a human being, but this is not to say that the dog does not have a soul. The soul is placed in different bodies that have different types of intelligence and different ways of thinking, acting, feeling, and willing. So the mind and intelligence differ according to the body, but the soul remains the same. **Hayagrīva:** By identifying the soul with mind and reason, Augustine could justify killing animals. He writes: "Indeed, some people try to stretch the prohibition ['Thou shalt not kill.'] to cover beasts and cattle, and make it unlawful to kill any such animal. But then, why not include plants and anything rooted in and feeding on the soil?...Putting this nonsense aside, we do not apply 'Thou shalt not kill' to plants, because they have no sensation; nor to irrational animals that fly, swim, walk, or creep, because they are linked to us by no association or common bond. By the creator's wise ordinance, they are meant for our use, dead or alive. It only remains for us to apply the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' to man alone, oneself and others." **Prabhupāda:** The Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," without qualification. Our Vedic philosophy admits that one living entity serves as food for another living entity. That is natural. As stated in *Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,* those animals who have hands eat animals without hands. The four-legged animals eat animals that cannot move, as well as plants and vegetables. Thus the weak is food for the strong. This is a natural law. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, however, is not based on the view that plant life is less sensitive than animal life, or animal life is less sensitive than human life. We consider all human beings, animals, plants, and trees to be living entities, spirit souls. We may eat an animal or a vegetable—whatever the case, we must inevitably eat some living entity. It therefore becomes a question of selection. Apart from vegetarian or nonvegetarian diets, we are basically concerned with Kṛṣṇa *prasādam.* We take only the remnants of whatever Kṛṣṇa eats. In *the *Bhagavad-gītā**, Kṛṣṇa says: > patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ > yo me bhaktyā prayacchati > tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam > aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, I will accept it." [*Bg.* 9.26] This is our philosophy. We are concerned with taking the remnants of Kṛṣṇa's food, which we call *prasādam,* mercy. We should not touch meat or anything else not offerable to Kṛṣṇa. > yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo > mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ > bhuñjate te tv aghaṁpapa > ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." [*Bg.* 3.13]